Justice Committee on Dec. 5th, 2013

[Chief Gina Deer]

Okay.

Another is the sale to minors. That's where the implementation of the laws and the regulations comes in. That's something Kahnawake has been working on and the community has been pushing hard for, especially in light of this bill, I have to say. It's the major concern right now in Kahnawake.

In conclusion, we suggest that the federal government seize the opportunity to work with first nations to resolve this issue, and either stop or delay the passing of this bill or alternatively, suspend the application of these amendments until such time as an agreement is reached on a regulatory regime.

That's it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you.

We'll now go to the rounds of questions.

Our first question is from Mr. Jacob of the New Democratic Party.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the three chiefs for being with us this morning.

My first question is for Chiefs Brian David and Steven Thomas, of the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne. The Akwesasne chiefs stated that they were concerned by the possible repercussions of mandatory minimum sentences on their communities, particularly on young people.

Chief David, you said that you are worried that heavy fines and prison sentences will turn young people, who smuggle tobacco because they have few opportunities for legal employment, into hardened criminals, and will force them into a life of crime. I would like both of you to comment on this statement.

[Chief Brian David]

Thank you for the question.

Let's go back a couple of years. A couple of years ago, we had young people who couldn't find jobs in and around our community, and it wasn't just Akwesasne Mohawks. In that whole area, there's very high unemployment. Because of the unemployment, skilled, educated people who were involved in the transportation of tobacco products across the St. Lawrence and elsewhere were getting caught. These were people who would otherwise have jobs. If they had been provided an opportunity to secure a job that was long term, that had security for their families, they probably would not have been on the river at all. There's a counter-argument that can be made here, that maybe the solution to this is economic development.

Where I was going with the other argument is if Bill C-10 has the impact of increasing the risk of that particular activity, those people who have a lot to lose, in terms of their investment in education, in terms of their position and social structure, the family they have, probably won't get involved in that activity, which is probably good. The flip side of the coin is that it leaves a vacuum. Who will get involved in that kind of activity? It will not be the people who have a lot to lose. It will be the people who don't have anything to lose, and those are the hardened criminals, who are members of these criminal families. Where are we going to find them? We're going to find them back on the St. Lawrence.

At least we had something that was manageable the last time around. This time around we could end up with a war out in the river. What we're concerned about is the safety and security of our community. That's the backlash, the adverse impact with Bill C-10.

Does that answer your question, sir?

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Yes, thank you.

My next question is for Chief Deer.

As an alternative to Bill S-16, which is now Bill C-10, Serge Simon, Grand Chief of the Mohawk Council of Kanesatake, would like to see tobacco sales regulated by the band councils. Lloyd Phillips, one of the chiefs on the Kahnawake Band Council, very much agrees, because he believes that regulation would remove organized crime from the industry and guarantee that profits would be reinvested in the community.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order. Chief Thomas is not getting translation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

We'll stop the clock. Try it now.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I will repeat my question.

Serge Simon, Grand Chief of the Mohawk Council of Kanesatake, would like to see tobacco sales regulated by the band councils. One of the chiefs on the Kahnawake Band Council, Lloyd Phillips, very much agrees, because he believes that regulation would remove organized crime from the industry and guarantee that profits are reinvested in the community.

I would like Chief Deer to comment on this.

[Chief Gina Deer]

We support that. Regulations and laws need to be created by the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake. There have been suggestions from community members and people involved within the industry on how to eliminate the possibility of organized crime being involved. One of the suggestions was a single-source system.

They're looking at different options, and looking at creating, as I said, laws and regulations to exclude the possibility of their getting involved in our community.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

You have one more minute, Mr. Jacob.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

One minute. Then I have time for another question.

The latest annual report of the Office of the Correctional Investigator highlights the various problems related to the disproportionately high incarceration rates among aboriginal people. Chief Deer, you talked about this. What do you think would be the repercussions of Bill C-10 on incarceration rates among aboriginal people? This question is also for the other chiefs.

[Chief Gina Deer]

I can't even imagine how they would house everyone. You're talking about many people. I don't even know the numbers right now. Iroquois Caucus has been involved, and different communities. They're all looking at the same issues.

I think the answer for Canada is to work with first nations. A lot of people have been coming to Kahnawake and asking us to work together.

We can do it. It's possible. That's the answer: regulate the industry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Would the other two chiefs like to answer this question, briefly?

[Chief Brian David]

I support the idea of regulation. Actually, we're currently involved in the pilot project to do that.

To directly answer the question on representation, yes, there is concern of overrepresentation, but the issue here mainly is that this bill could very well be sending people to prison, or to crime university, which basically the penitentiaries are. Those individuals who don't know too much learn an awful lot in the penitentiaries.

Where are they going after they come out? They're not going to Toronto. They're not going to Ottawa. They're coming back. We're going to get them back in our communities, and then we've got another problem to deal with.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions and those answers.

Our next questioner, from the Conservative Party, is Monsieur Goguen.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for providing your insight. We obviously have lots to learn.

It's pretty clear from your testimony that organized crime is not an accepted or welcome element within your territories. Of course, we recognize your issues with regard to resources, whether it be on the river or within the territory.

I'm wondering what efforts your organizations are taking to identify organizations' links to organized crime and the sale of illegal tobacco. I believe in Kahnawake you've actually entered into some agreements with the Province of Quebec to try to minimize this, if I'm not mistaken.

[Chief Gina Deer]

Exactly. The Kahnawake Peacekeepers are very active in trying to work with the outside forces. It's currently being addressed.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

All right.

Chief David.

[Chief Brian David]

Currently the Akwesasne Mohawk Police Service works with the RCMP, or the OPP and Sûreté du Québec, the Saint Regis Mohawk Tribe, New York State Police, CBSA, FNOC, which is the first nations organized crime initiative, IBET, the international border enhancement team, the Homeland Security drug enforcement agency. We work with just about every enforcement agency in and around the locale of Akwesasne, basically within five jurisdictions, in order to put together a policing plan that will address the needs and concerns of Akwesasne.

I have to point out that part of the issue here in terms of law enforcement is that Canada and the United States don't have the same priority issues when it comes to policing. You know that. Americans are concerned about drugs going across the river, and naturally the Canadians are worried about cigarettes going across the river.

The enforcement organizations need to be synchronized with the activities that are taking place. There does not seem to be an accord at this point in time. We see that more vividly in our environment because of the international environment that we operate and live in. It's difficult to get a concrete plan together.

Does that answer your question?

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I believe so, yes.

Chief Thomas.

[Chief Steven Thomas]

Our local communities, stakeholders you may say, the communities that abut Akwesasne on both sides of the border, have the same issues that we have. This is not strictly an Akwesasne issue.

You have local towns in St. Lawrence County and Franklin County that are inundated with drugs that are coming back from Mexico into the United States. They come in from Brooklyn, New York City. It's so bad that they sent one of their sheriffs from New York City and a chief of police to come and look at the border in Akwesasne. They're going to do a report that you guys will never see.

This is what I mean. Canada does their investigations. The United States does an investigation. You don't share any of this information. We're stuck here in the middle, asking for help from both sides. You create laws, criminalize the people who are stuck in the middle, which people come through.

In its heyday, and you heard the statistics earlier from the CBSA. We live on a bay in the St. Lawrence River. People came and knocked on every door that had a boat parked on the river. These were your people, Quebec, Ontario, Italians, foreign people, asking, “Can you take this across the river? Can you help me do this? Can you help me do that?” The men are working out of the country and the women have to take this—and there's a psychological effect on our women folk—because the men are gone.

This is the type of industry that's out there. They're mingling right here in this town and every town that's large enough to host these illicit individuals. Yet you want to criminalize the mules and not deal with the issue at hand.

Our people in Akwesasne, on the map you might as well put a black mark right across it because this is what we have to deal with at the public relations level. We're trying to create a legitimate economy through economic development, honest economy, development dollars. Yet we have to fight for this. We're asking Canada for assistance to turn this thing around and let our people go back to work like we used to. Let them have their jobs. They were proud ironworkers. When you're on the iron, 60, 70, 100 floors up, you're that much closer to the Creator than you are down here. You're above the birds that used to carry our messages. Now you're one-on-one with the Creator. This is what we're asking, the return to that life.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner is Mr. Scarpaleggia from the Liberal Party.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

It's fascinating testimony. What made it compelling for me is that many witnesses read from notes, but you really spoke from the heart and provided some very detailed background on the issue and the communities.

Chief David, you mentioned that through your efforts and the efforts of your council, your police force, you've basically cleared the river of all the illicit traffic that was happening. I guess that's why now most of the contraband comes by road, as our previous witnesses were saying.

Could you give us a brief glimpse of how you did that, how you cleared the river?

[Chief Brian David]

Maybe I'm taking too much credit for what happened.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I'm interested in knowing how you achieved that result, or how others in your community achieved that result.