Justice Committee on Dec. 5th, 2013

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

—before the CBSA?

[Geoffrey Leckey]

—before the CBSA border point.

In our opinion, this will tighten up the inspection of goods, vehicles, and people before they enter Canada.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

What proportion of contraband would come in by road through the border crossing versus through other means like cigarette boats, and so on?

[Geoffrey Leckey]

A very large volume comes in by road. I can provide you with some statistics on that.

In terms of the fine-cut tobacco—that's the type of contraband tobacco that's increased sevenfold in the last two years—98% of it was seized in the highway commercial stream.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

What percentage of contraband would you be capturing? In other words, what percentage of what comes in are you catching at, let's say, Cornwall?

[Geoffrey Leckey]

What percentage of all the contraband that's brought into Canada do we capture?

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

No, through that particular gateway, more or less. Obviously you can't say because we don't know.

[Geoffrey Leckey]

It's very difficult to say.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Is it 5%, 10%, 50%?

[Geoffrey Leckey]

I'd rather not—

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Okay, that's fine; fair enough.

[Geoffrey Leckey]

We do believe the sevenfold increase that I referred to is having an impact on the criminal organizations.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you.

Our next questioner is Mr. Calkins from the Conservative Party.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I appreciate the difficulty you had in answering that last question. It's hard to know how much you're not getting when you're not getting it. But we can safely say that you're getting 100% of what you are finding.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

I appreciate the difficulty in that line of questioning.

Mr. Leckey and Inspector Cormier, I just want to say thank you. Could you pass along my appreciation, on behalf of my constituents, for the work you do? I represent a large rural riding in central Alberta, and we've had some issues with some seizures of a lot of contraband cigarettes that were taken from a first nations band that was storing the cigarettes in a band-owned facility on reserve. Due to some provincial excise tax issues, it resulted in a large seizure and forfeiture. I know it's difficult work.

Mr. Leckey, you said there were a lot of seizures in 2012, about 2,300 worth over $3 million. How are things going in 2013? The information that I have from the library shows that in late 2007-08, the amount of contraband coming in was on the rise. We had the announcement of the RCMP task force and the strategy that's been talked about, and it seems to be on the decrease, yet it is still a fairly significant issue.

Where are we in 2013? Do you have any updates for us?

[Geoffrey Leckey]

Yes. If we compare January to October 2013 to the same period in 2012, the total number of seizures is up 5%. The number of cigarettes seized is up 46%. The volume of cigars seized is up 16%. The volume of fine-cut tobacco is up 66%, and other types of tobacco products are up 6%.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Okay, so it's still an ongoing problem that seems to be coming back. We have some manufacturing and distribution that happens domestically. We have some happening in the United States. We have some happening outside of the North American jurisdiction.

How much are we seeing as a change in where this contraband tobacco was sourced? Are we seeing a lot more coming from across the pond, so to speak? How's it getting here? What's the most common method it's coming in by? Do you have the detection equipment and resources necessary to make sure that you're capturing as much as you can?

[Geoffrey Leckey]

With respect to contraband cigarettes that we seize, the first and second countries that those cigarettes originate from are China and South Korea. The U.S. is only third. For the most part, those cigarettes are coming into Canada in the postal and courier mode in large numbers of shipments, but in relatively small volumes.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

That's very interesting. The information I have shows that the production in Ontario and Quebec is ramped up for the legal cash crop that's grown in Canada. The reason this market is growing is our export markets in places like China and Korea. We have more contraband coming in and more legal production going out. It seems like an odd situation.

When this law is passed, the CBSA will have jurisdiction under the Excise Act. Without these provisions that we're talking about today, when you found someone, you would hand the investigation over to the RCMP. Yet the reality is, without the Criminal Code and the amendments being proposed right now, the only way you could pursue an investigation and a charge would be through the Excise Act.

Now we have Criminal Code provisions that we hope are going to be adopted unanimously by Parliament. I would be interested in seeing anybody who would vote against this. The reality is you would have to hand this over specifically to the RCMP. I don't think any other police force in Canada has jurisdiction when it comes to the Excise Act. Now, however, at any port of entry, whether it's the RCMP or some other local police force, any police officer can investigate and pursue Criminal Code offences.

Can you describe how that's going to change the nature of the relationship that you have? I know you have a close relationship with the RCMP right now, but you'll have to expand those relationships with other police forces, where other police forces would be the closest jurisdiction to help you with this.

[Geoffrey Leckey]

Yes, this will expand and increase the number of contacts that we have with local police and jurisdictions. We've made a total of 1,996 seizures so far this year of tobacco that would meet the definition of contraband tobacco under this act. However, a lot of those seizures are very small in volume and probably would not be pursued as a criminal charge.

Nevertheless, in each case, some thought would be given to making a referral to the local police.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much for those questions and answers, Mr. Calkins.

Next, from the New Democratic Party, we have Madame Péclet.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for their opening remarks. They were very interesting. My first question is about resources on the ground.

Mr. Cormier, but also Mr. Leckey, you referred to joint operations that involve the RCMP, the Border Services Agency, the Americans and provincial ministries.

I would like to know exactly what kind of resources you will need in order to implement this new bill.

[Insp Jean Cormier]

It is a difficult question to answer because we will have to use the existing resources. As I said earlier, we already have working partnerships. We are already carrying out efficient investigations. From various standpoints, the new legislation will allow us to prosecute the major organized crime groups.