Justice Committee on Dec. 5th, 2013

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Chief David, you mentioned some of the criminal elements that come into your communities from outside. We heard from the RCMP earlier that groups such as the Hells Angels, the Outlaws motorcycle gang, and many other outside groups are exploiting your people, bringing violence and intimidation into your community from outside. That impacts my community because those same outside criminal organizations take the product from your communities, sell it to schoolchildren in Mississauga, and also establish a relationship with them that will allow them to sell other things such as harder drugs once they get them addicted to nicotine.

Why are you not concerned about how the violence and the exploitation these tobacco products...? Why are you not concerned about that element being brought into your community? How would you suggest we work together to prevent those outside criminal organizations from exploiting your people?

[Chief Brian David]

We didn't include information about our particular concern over the chain of violence because of the time limits.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Do you agree with the RCMP that there's violence and intimidation?

[Chief Brian David]

I think this is where there's a meeting of the minds. We're in agreement on that. We don't agree with cigarettes being sold to minors. We don't agree with cigarettes being sold in high schools. We don't agree with the transport or the ill effects. In our community we have the same concerns as you do. We don't want that happening in Akwesasne and you don't want that happening in your community. The question is how do we fix it so it doesn't happen?

If the origin is in Akwesasne, then why isn't the investment in Akwesasne? It seems that the investment wants to go over into law enforcement on the perimeter of Akwesasne.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Are you talking about extra funding for the police organization in your community?

[Chief Brian David]

Well, for the police organization and for the actual man-hours....

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Do you agree that if, overall, we reduce the amount of contraband tobacco flowing out of your community to other places like Mississauga, it will benefit your community by keeping those criminal elements from coming into your community and exploiting your people?

[Chief Brian David]

I don't understand the question.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I'm saying there's obviously an illegal trade that's able to conduct business because of the differential in pricing of tobacco, for one thing, between on the reserve and off the reserve. That brings criminal elements onto your reserve, which you said you don't appreciate.

If we reduce the overall trade in that product off the reserve, isn't that going to benefit your community in the long term by keeping those criminal elements out and away from exploiting your people?

[Chief Brian David]

The quick answer is no.

What we're looking to do is to replace that activity with legitimate activity, which is our own manufacturing. That's why we're talking about setting up our own regulatory regimes, jumping into our manufacturing, and eventually setting up legal trade routes with other communities. It basically legalizes the whole activity. It will be done in collaboration and partnership with Canada, if Canada wishes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our final questioner, for two minutes, is Mr. Kellway from the NDP.

One question, please.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Chief Deer, you got cut off in your testimony earlier. You were about to talk about some important issues raised at the Senate hearings and I'd like to give you the opportunity to finish talking about those points, if you wish.

[Chief Gina Deer]

It's all in the document that was provided.

It's just that this has taken place before and Kahnawake has asked Canada to sit down and talk. This has been going on and Canada has been addressing it in every other way, except to sit down and talk with our community. We're still waiting from, I believe it was 2008 when Grand Chief Michael Delisle was here and requested that.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

This obviously isn't the forum for having those conversations, but you've made reference to a framework and protocol. With respect to the bill Chief David talked about having a sidebar protocol. Do you have a clear sense of what your territory would like to see in such conversation and framework?

[Chief Gina Deer]

Yes, we already have draft laws.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

So you're ready to go.

Chief David or Chief Thomas, part of the reason this bill is coming forward, it's being sold as the criminalization component here permits the engagement of other police forces. I understand you're into this apart from the RCMP. I understand from your testimony today that there is cooperation among police forces on the issue of contraband tobacco already in existence on your territories, although your own police forces are underfunded and handcuffed, if I can put it that way, in their ability to do as much as you'd like. Is that the case?

[Chief Steven Thomas]

Yes, it is, Mr. Kellway.

My nephew is the chief of police on the southern portion of Akwesasne. I was on the police commission for two terms prior to being elected chief.

What I see in this bill is you're going to criminalize the individual. You're going to put officer safety as a priority.... You're going to increase the police pursuits because of this.

As of right now, if you stop a truckload of cigarettes the guy says he can pay the fine. If you're going to criminalize this and the sentence is two years in prison, they're not going to stop and you're going to have police pursuits throughout Akwesasne. We went through this before. A person was involved in this several years ago, and it included our police officers, and two innocent people burned to death in their car after this idiot ran into them.

This is what's going to happen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much for those questions.

Thank you, panel, for your testimony today. The presentations were excellent.

Just so you know, your presentations were not circulated because they need to be in both official languages for us to be able to circulate them. I would encourage members of the committee to look at the Senate minutes on the discussion of the bill there. If you want to look at the testimony that was given—

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Can we get them translated?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Well, we can try. We'll get them translated and to you as soon as possible, but that's why they were not circulated, just so you know.

With that, I remind members that we will be meeting next Tuesday. If you have amendments, it would be appropriate to have them to us for Tuesday, and next Thursday we'll do the clause-by-clause study.

Thank you very much.

This meeting is adjourned.