Evidence of meeting #9 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:05 a.m.
Director, Federal Coordination Centres, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
What I will say in regard to that question is the teams and the personnel assigned to those teams will be in strategic locations where there is a concentrated concern or issues.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
The reason I ask that is we tend to focus on two provinces, those being Ontario and Quebec, which predominantly have been in the news more than others, but this doesn't mean there isn't a problem across the rest of Canada. That's all I was getting to. There is the opportunity strategically to place team members across Canada. That's the only question I was asking, and I take from that, your answer is yes.
I wonder if you could also elaborate on first nations from the perspective of the communities, not necessarily chiefs and councillors but also including them. Are they generally helpful with investigations, or are they intimidated sometimes and coerced by organized crime?
9:05 a.m.
Director, Federal Coordination Centres, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Generally speaking, it's like when we investigate any crime or organized crime type of activity. Obviously, we will get a mix of citizens who are concerned and cooperative, and then again we will get some people who feel intimidated. As we know, organized crime uses scare tactics or intimidation tactics and do get to the citizens unfortunately. It would be a mix. It's not a clear definition, I guess, of cooperation or non-cooperation.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Leckey, you talked about training and technology becoming very important in this and yet you also alluded to the sevenfold increase in two years with regard to illicit tobacco coming into our country. What is the technology showing you? From the perspective of training, is there an opportunity at some point in time for us to be able to, for lack of a better term, nip this in the bud and hopefully see a decrease? Technology should be able to tell us that we should be able to find forms of working on this.
9:05 a.m.
Director General, Enforcement and Intelligence Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
The types of technology that we use include VACIS machines, which are large scanning machines. You can put an entire tractor trailer through them, and they'll show up any anomalies in the consistency within the container. We also, of course, use detector dogs.
As equally important as the technology is the training of the officers. We continually issue intelligence alerts as to new indicators to look for, whether they be the particularities of the shipment or the behaviour of the individual.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
At the beginning of your statement you mentioned that this will have a slight impact on CBSA because you work under different acts as opposed to the Criminal Code. You work under the Excise Act and a lot of other federal components. Is that correct?
9:10 a.m.
Director General, Enforcement and Intelligence Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
Yes, that's correct. Until now and indeed in the future CBSA will approach individuals from whom contraband tobacco is being seized under the Customs Act and the Excise Act. We'll continue to do that.
However, now that we're aware there's a new law that makes trafficking in contraband tobacco a criminal act, we'll make sure that our border services officers are aware of that. It will have a slight impact on their training. We'll have to update the training of officers already in service.
There will be more contact with local police who, of course, in many parts of the country, are the RCMP. There'll be more opportunities to pass referrals to the police, and then whether police proceed with charges and whether prosecution is used will be up to the police and the public prosecution service.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
Thank you very much.
Our next questioner is Mr. Scarpaleggia from the Liberal Party.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
It's a pleasure; thank you, Chair.
To follow up on that, Mr. Leckey, you said there will be new opportunities to cooperate and to pass on information to the police. Could you elaborate on that and how that flows from this particular piece of legislation?
9:10 a.m.
Director General, Enforcement and Intelligence Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
Yes. As I said, the CBSA will continue to lay charges under the Customs Act and the Excise Act, but now that there's this new tool that has been made available to us and our police partners, there's a potential for laying a criminal charge. I think that's the main deterrent of this law.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Right. I see. I know that minimum sentences kick in after the third or fourth offence.
9:10 a.m.
Director General, Enforcement and Intelligence Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
After the first offence, I believe.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
After the first. What are the maximum sentences for first offence, second offence, and third offence?
9:10 a.m.
Director General, Enforcement and Intelligence Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
I have that here.
9:10 a.m.
Director General, Enforcement and Intelligence Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
Well, the mandatory minimums would be 90 days on a second conviction; 180 days on a third conviction; and two years less a day on subsequent convictions.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Okay.
Do the maximums go up with the number of offences? That's okay, it's not a major point that I wanted to make.
Do you feel that these new criminal offences will have an impact on the activity, that these will discourage the traffickers from trafficking?
9:10 a.m.
Director General, Enforcement and Intelligence Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
Well, the threat of criminal charges and of having a criminal record will have a deterrent effect. I have no doubt about that.
I just looked at the actual act and the maximum prison term is five years.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
That's the maximum. Okay.
I suppose we're dealing with criminal gangs in most cases and sometimes they would conscript the help of someone who maybe is not yet part of a gang. Basically we're dealing with hard-core criminal gangs who are subject to the Criminal Code in other respects as well, maybe not with respect to contraband tobacco, but in their other activities. There is already a deterrent to some extent, but you feel this additional deterrent would have a measurable impact.
One issue has been raised with me, which is the border station on the U.S. side at the moment, at Cornwall and Massena.
9:15 a.m.
Director General, Enforcement and Intelligence Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
At the moment it's on the Canadian side.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
It's on the Canadian side, but there is rumour of a desire to move it to the U.S. side.
9:15 a.m.
Director General, Enforcement and Intelligence Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
Negotiations are under way with U.S. authorities to set up a pre-clearance on the U.S. side.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Would the station on the Canadian side be dismantled or would it continue to operate as it does?
I've heard from stakeholders that they're very concerned. They feel that this move would make it easier to.... I can't tell you the specifics as to why, but they feel it's not a good move in fighting contraband tobacco, and that it will make it easier to bring contraband tobacco into Canada.
I'd like your opinion as to why it won't be easier, and maybe from you, Inspector Cormier, because it's been brought to me quite clearly that this is not a good idea.
9:15 a.m.
Director General, Enforcement and Intelligence Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
If the Canadian port of entry is on the U.S. side in Massena, then everyone seeking to enter Canada through that passageway is going to have to be cleared at that point. At the moment, vehicles can enter the Akwesasne reserve and a lot of illicit activity is undertaken on the reserve—