Evidence of meeting #60 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dog.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Corporal Bill Nachuk  As an Individual
Geoffry Logue  As an Individual
Rakesh Jetly  Mental Health Advisor, Directorate of Mental Health, Department of National Defence

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

But they won't let them into the Royal York.

Again, thank you so much, to the two of you, Bombardier Logue for bringing in Luna and Master Corporal Nachuk for bringing in Gambler. We really appreciate having both dogs here with us, and for your being so honest in sharing your personal experiences. We want to wish both of you all the best in your recovery.

Mr. Logue, I understand you're expecting a child fairly soon. Your wife was going to accompany you, but unfortunately couldn't travel because she is getting so long in her term. We want to wish you all the best with that, as well as a very merry Christmas as we're entering into the holiday season.

Again, thank you.

We're going to suspend briefly as we change witnesses. With that, the meeting is suspended.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

We're back in order. We'll continue with our study.

Joining us now as a witness is Colonel Rakesh Jetly from the Department of National Defence.

Colonel Jetly is a mental health adviser at the directorate of mental health. A medical officer, he was trained back in 1989, graduating from the U of T. He has a doctorate in medicine and served in a number of different units across the world, not just across Canada, including twice through Afghanistan. He has been on two separate missions there, commanding the mental health detachment of the Canadian-led Role 3 Multinational Medical Unit, which we were just talking about. He was promoted to lieutenant-colonel in 2007 and posted to Ottawa in 2008. He was appointed in 2011 to his current rank as senior psychiatrist and mental health adviser for the Canadian Forces Surgeon General.

With that, Colonel, I will turn it over to you for your opening comments.

4:40 p.m.

Colonel Rakesh Jetly Mental Health Advisor, Directorate of Mental Health, Department of National Defence

I want to begin by thanking you, Mr. Chair, for this opportunity to speak with you and the members of the committee.

I also want to thank you for your ongoing interest and support regarding the health of our men and women in uniform and our veterans. Your support is particularly important, as we know from history that interest in the mental health of veterans can fade soon after wars. We also know from history—our own research and that of our allies—that the full mental health impacts of difficult deployments will not be realized for years to come, if not decades.

As you are all aware, the Canadian armed forces have witnessed a decade that involved many important operations abroad, from Afghanistan to Haiti and Libya and beyond. All of these operations have placed heavy demands on the Canadian Forces and specifically on our personnel.

Now that we are coming down from this high operational tempo, we know that we will likely face challenges in providing health care services—particularly in mental health—to our returning men and women in uniform. I can assure you that the care of our ill and injured personnel is a top priority, and we recognize the unique circumstances we now find ourselves in.

I do not like to use terms like “bow wave” or “surge”, but there will likely be a steady increase in Canadian Forces members and veterans presenting symptoms of operational stress injuries in the coming years. For this reason, our clinics must remain prepared.

One of the imperatives we have is to ensure that the ill and injured have timely access to evidence-based care. I would like to expand on that last phrase, “timely access”. It's essential that when someone finds the courage to come forward and seek help, we stand ready to provide them with that support.

As I am sure members of this committee can understand, it can be difficult to come forward and seek assistance with operational stress injuries. For any number of personal reasons, the window of opportunity when someone feels comfortable to seek help can be limited. This is why we must maintain a well-resourced system that is agile and readily available, such as we currently have, with both primary care clinicians and well-trained mental health specialists. In addition, the flexibility to have clinicians in uniform, in the public service, and contractors is key to meeting the needs of our men and women.

The second imperative is evidence-based care. That is demanded of us by existing rules and regulation, but it is also a crucial element of any health system.

Simply put, our patients deserve the best that medicine has to offer: that is to say, treatment supported by sound clinical research. That is why we explicitly use treatments, whether medication or psychotherapy, that have been demonstrated to be both safe and effective in our patient population.

Evidence to support these treatments usually involves multiple large controlled studies that are published in peer-reviewed academic journals and are endorsed by international organizations such as the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies. These studies cannot, of course, predict that 100% of people will fully respond to a treatment, but rather that for most people with a particular condition, this is the suggested approach. I can expand on this point later, if desired.

Not only is it best practice to use evidence-based treatment for everything from strep throat or lung cancer to post-traumatic stress disorder, it is also part of our governance. In his appearance before this committee, Colonel Scott McLeod described to you the function of our spectrum of care committee. Essentially, all services, treatments, or items made available to CF members must adhere to scientific principles of evidence-based medicine; be necessary for the purpose of maintaining health; be funded by at least one province or federal agency; benefit, sustain, or restore a serving member to an operationally effective or deployable status; and not be purely for experimental, research, or cosmetic purposes.

Now I will go to the topic that I believe you have asked me to discuss today: canine-assisted therapy, or, more specifically, psychiatric service dogs used by mentally ill people, including CF members and veterans suffering from a psychological injury.

As Colonel McLeod discussed, animal-assisted therapy does not currently fulfill the guidelines within our spectrum of care. Existing scientific literature on the topic, as well as information from our major allies, does not yet provide us with sufficient evidence to support the use of canine-assisted therapy in our approved treatment programs. I should also mention that our practices in this field are in line with those in the U.S. and U.K., which do not use canine-assisted therapy in their core treatments.

However, this does not mean that canine-assisted therapy has no value in support of the ill or the injured personnel. I, like many Canadians, watched the television program W5 a few weeks ago and was moved by what I saw. These men appear to have benefited quite profoundly from the empathic relationship they have developed with these dogs, but without substantive research, one can only speculate as to what role these dogs play in the treatment of the ill and the injured. I feel it is a positive social relationship that affords a level of safety and comfort in previously unsafe and anxiety-filled situations.

One thing that I want to make clear is that many things that are good for one's health are not health care per se. Among the many determinants of health, the World Health Organization lists the following elements: where we live, the state of our environment, genetics, our income and education level, and our relationship with friends and family. The World Health Organization also states that these determinants all have considerable impacts on health, whereas the more commonly considered factors, such as access and use of health care services, often have less impact.

With this in mind, we can see how important housing, income, employment, and education are. These issues were all discussed at the Tri-National Military Mental Health Symposium in Washington this past September, and the importance of relationships has already been demonstrated by our DND and Veterans Affairs operational stress injury social support program.

In this regard, canine-assisted therapy can have a positive health impact in some patients in a non-clinical social way, but at this point there is not sufficient evidence to justify the inclusion of canine therapy in our spectrum of care. Our commitment is to provide our ill and injured CF members with the best health care possible, and that means a standard of care that is supported by therapies and practice that are scientifically proven and accepted.

Of course, both General Lawson and Rear-Admiral Smith told you we are committed to continually improving how we care for our own.

Thank you again for your interest in this very important issue, the care of our ill and injured forces members. I'd be happy to answer any questions.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you, Colonel. We're going to stick with five-minute rounds, even though we'll start over.

Mr. Harris, you have the floor.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you. I don't want to focus too much on the dog therapy issue, but it seems to me that aside from the clinical trials that might take years, an application of common sense might help some people.

Do you agree with that?

4:45 p.m.

Col Rakesh Jetly

I'm not sure what you mean by common sense.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

As you say, it's pretty evident from watching the television program—which I didn't see, by the way—and listening to these gentlemen here today that there can be benefits from the knowledge that already exists about the positive aspects of a relationship between animals and humans, particularly in the case of PTSD-type symptoms.

Why wouldn't you provide that assistance to people when the benefits are obvious, even if it may take a long time and a lot of money to scientifically prove those benefits? Meanwhile people are hurting.

4:45 p.m.

Col Rakesh Jetly

I think that decision lies elsewhere in the department than in health services.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you for your answer.

Are you as disturbed as some of us around this table to hear that Bombardier Logue was discharged from Afghanistan unaccompanied on a civilian aircraft back to Canada? Is that something that you would tolerate? I don't know if that happens to other injured soldiers from Afghanistan. Are you concerned about that?

4:45 p.m.

Col Rakesh Jetly

I am concerned hearing that, yes. I was disturbed to hear that.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Why do you think something like that could happen?

4:45 p.m.

Col Rakesh Jetly

I can't speak for the specific case.

Normally a medical evacuation is a process that involves many people: communication, determining the route the person goes, whether they're accompanied or unaccompanied, whether it's a STRATEVAC, whether they go via Landstuhl, so I can't speak to the specifics of this case. In every case I was involved in, a lot of thought was given to how the person was repatriated.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Colonel, you're the mental health expert in the forces. Presumably we all agree with the kind of high-minded notions of how people ought to be looked after that we heard from Colonel Lawson, from the chief medical personnel, and from the chief medical officer, but how is it that we keep hearing reports such as we just heard about the medical officer telling an individual if he can't look after himself, how can he look after a dog? Individual soldiers are afraid to come forward or afraid to admit to a relapse because they might lose their jobs; they are postponing seeking treatment until it's perhaps too late. How is it that these things continue to happen and we continue to hear about them?

4:50 p.m.

Col Rakesh Jetly

I think it's an ongoing process of education. We continue to need to educate leadership, members, and our own medical personnel to continue to encourage people to come forward. We believe that the best chance people have of retaining their careers is to come forward for treatment.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

I have a report in front of me prepared by some civilian clinicians in Petawawa on April 25 of this year. It is complaining about the mental health services that are being offered. They say, for example, that “addictions are rampant and we lack medical addictions specialists”, that “clinicians do not have access to any formal clinical supervision”, that “too often psychiatric clinical diagnoses and recommended treatments and opinions are dismissed by the medical officers”. They say that “some medical officers believe clients should have six months' sobriety before they can participate in a residential treatment program” and that “some medical officers do not believe in PTSD diagnosis and some do not believe that PTSD is treatable”.

How can we offer the kind of support to soldiers that you say they deserve if we have medical officers behaving in this way? This comes from civilian clinicians who are trying to see that we get better treatment for our soldiers.

4:50 p.m.

Col Rakesh Jetly

There have been major gains in Petawawa since that report was written.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

That was in April, sir.

4:50 p.m.

Col Rakesh Jetly

Absolutely. I'm not sure what I....

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

But that was April. We're talking six months ago.

4:50 p.m.

Col Rakesh Jetly

Yes, and I said there have been major gains.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

So the medical officers have been removed and replaced?

4:50 p.m.

Col Rakesh Jetly

No.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Can you tell us what's happened?

4:50 p.m.

Col Rakesh Jetly

There's been a change of leadership within the mental health clinic. There has been some hiring, some increased staffing. We've posted an experienced major psychiatrist in to help out also. The continued working between the mental health folks and the relationship between the primary care folks is being worked on with weekly meetings, regular meetings, education.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Are you convinced that Petawawa is the only place where we have this kind of difficulty? We heard testimony just within the last hour that at Shilo, for example, there are similar types of situations in terms of relationships, and that things are perhaps getting worse. As a result of what was discovered or what became public in Petawawa, has there been a full national review of how problems are being dealt with on bases?