Natural Resources Committee on Oct. 30th, 2023

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I do want to point out that, before you suspended the last exchange, you and Ms. Dabrusin both had your microphones on at the same time and were speaking at the same time. I appreciate the injunction around not having multiple microphones....

I mean, there are a few other things going on around the microphones—

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

That is not a point of order.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

—such as right now. Also there have been a number of instances where the mikes have been turned on. I understand that it's the common practice at committee for staff to turn on members' mikes when they start speaking, but that does create a little bit of a challenge when someone is trying to raise a point of order and there are other people who are speaking.

I would ask the clerk, maybe, to clarify—if you'll allow the clerk to speak—just the issue of providing notices of motion on points of order. I genuinely don't know the answer to this question, but I know there have been many other committees where notices of motion have been provided on points of order.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

It's happened on this committee, actually, under the former chair.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

From what I thought, the practice of verbal notice of motion is fairly informal because you're not actually moving a motion. You're just providing notice that a motion is coming, so that can happen on points of order, during rounds of questions, or in other instances.

I do think it is an important point—whether Ms. Stubbs' motion was put on notice or not—because, to my understanding, there is a precedent even at this committee for that having been done in the past. However, I will acknowledge that, in terms of whether this is spoken to specifically in the rule book, I don't know.

Mr. Chair, I wonder if you would.... I had an original point of order that I was raising, but before I get back to that, I wonder if you will allow the clerk to weigh in on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis. A point of order is for a procedural issue, not to move a motion.

Thank you for your point of order.

I'm going to proceed to the next point of order.

Mr. Angus, you have the floor on a point of order.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It's not moving a motion, though.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a point of order—

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Genuis, I allowed you to speak on a point of order. I gave you the time to do that. We will move to Mr. Angus on a point of order. Then I have others, as well, on the same point of order.

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You raised a concern a number of times at the last meeting that literally the health and safety of staff who are working for the House are being put at risk by the behaviour of Ms. Stubbs, Mr. Genuis and Mr. Patzer. However, what we see already—you raised it once—is that they're interrupting you.

This is an issue of health and safety. We have people who are using their mikes to undermine the work of the committee, and this is all about denying me the floor. Therefore, I would ask you, Mr. Chair, to reiterate the necessity of making sure that our House staff are not subjected to this kind of abuse. They can abuse their other colleagues, but they can't abuse the staff in this manner.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Angus, thank you for the point of order.

Mr. Patzer, I'm going to come to you next, but before I do....

I'm looking around the room. Partway through the last meeting, we actually started to work quite well on respecting each other, on not speaking over each other, and on waiting. As I acknowledged, I know that sometimes you're not looking, but when I turn this mike on, you'll see this red light come on. I don't want to interrupt you, but I must, at some point, if you do not see or if we do not make contact. I want to allow all members to participate. I want to allow all members the ability to make a point of order if they have one, to make sure they have that opportunity. However, it can't be all of us at the same time because it is very difficult for the interpreters to follow the interpretation. It's also for their health and safety concerns.

I'm going to keep raising this point. If I believe that their health and safety is being compromised by the work of this committee, I will not hesitate. I will not—let it be clear—hesitate to suspend.

I think, Mr. Angus, that was a part of your point of order.

This was stated last meeting as well. I will state it again very clearly here.

Mr. Patzer, I have you next on a point of order. The floor is yours on a point of order.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you.

On Mr. Angus's point of order—and actually this applies to several issues here, and I think this would help with the interpreters—when one of us, a Conservative member, has the floor and somebody else raises a point of order, we are immediately cut off by the chair.

Mr. Angus was speaking. I let him go for a little while, and I had a point of order I wanted to raise. I wanted to let him finish, but there came a point when I thought, no. I had a point of order on what he was saying, and respectfully—you saw me—I didn't hammer my microphone. I wasn't yelling into my microphone. I put my hand up, and I said, “Point of order, Chair,” respectfully, and you just kind of put your hand up and just let him go on and on and on.

Equal and fair treatment of all members by the chair is a general and accepted rule of practice by the chair. I read it multiple times in multiple instances in Bosc and Gagnon that it's standard practice. We expect the chair to be equal and to be fair.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

We do.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

I'm going to interject because I gave you a time to pause.

Mr. Angus, on the point of order, all members, as I stated, have the right...and I do appreciate you, Mr. Patzer, for putting up your hand and signalling to me.

As Mr. Angus looked toward me, I asked him to finish the point of order. I did interject and allowed you to speak, and I'll allow other members to participate in the same manner, but if multiple people start saying, “Point of order,” I'm not sure who's point of order is raised before another's, and I do my best job to ensure that all members have that ability.

I recognized you, and I'm going to recognize another member.

Now I'm going to a point of order by Ms. Dabrusin, and then I'm going to the next point of order.

Ms. Dabrusin.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

She can go now, but I wasn't finished.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

If it's a different point of order, I understand—

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

She can go now, and then, after she's done—

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

If you have another point of order, we can go.

Ms. Dabrusin, on a point of order.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Once again, my understanding is that Mr. Angus has the floor.

We have a scheduling motion in front of us, and there is a subamendment. I'm just trying to bring this up because all of this happened actually a week ago, so we are talking about a subamendment to a scheduling motion so that we can go forward on legislation that was voted on by the House to send to this committee, and all of these points of order just keep happening, but at this point, we haven't been able.... We could have had the minister in front of us already if we had just managed to get through the subamendment, and then the motion.

I would say, unless the Conservatives are challenging the chair, your ruling has been that Mr. Angus has the floor. Can we please continue with the debate?

[An hon. member]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Yes, and I will recognize you in a moment.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Can I finish my point of order now?

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

I think I have addressed your point of order. If you have another point of order, I'll ask you—

Once again, colleagues, I don't need a number of people to tell me who's next or who's not. I heard a point of order on your point of order. I've addressed that. If there is another member, I will address them.

I want to remind colleagues that we have a motion on the floor by Mr. Sorbara. We have an amendment by Ms. Stubbs. We have another subamendment on Timmins, for which Mr. Angus last had the floor. He is our next speaker, who hasn't been allowed to speak.

Colleagues, we all discussed last meeting the importance of this bill and the amendments. I hope today we can get through this subamendment on Timmins, go through our speaking order on Timmins—all the members who want to debate this important component of the subamendment—so we can get to the amendment that Ms. Stubbs brought forward. We can debate that and we can get to the main motion.

I'm really hoping that we can work together as a committee, the Standing Committee on Natural Resources, studying the motion that Mr. Sorbara brought forward on Bill C-50 and Bill C-49 and then the additional amendment that Ms. Stubbs has brought forward.

This is the work of this committee, which Canadians expect us to do. If we can work together, everybody will have an opportunity to participate in debate and we can move forward.

I need all members to be very clear on where we are.

Ms. Dabrusin, you reminded us, and I should remind committee members of where we are as well, so there is no confusion.