Evidence of meeting #71 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was foundation.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much. That is your time.
We're turning now to our last two spots.
Mr. Kram, you have up to five minutes. It's over to you.
5:55 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Cappe, for being here today.
I want to follow up on an earlier question. I want to turn to you directly.
Did you say that a donation of $170,000 to the Trudeau Foundation would not be enough to buy influence with the government?
5:55 p.m.
Prof. Mel Cappe
I said that, if I had $140,000, $200,000 or $1 million, I wouldn't spend it that way if I were trying to exercise influence. I think that's an inefficient way of doing it, and they're not stupid.
5:55 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
What do you think would be a more efficient way to buy influence?
6 p.m.
Prof. Mel Cappe
A more traditional way is taking people out for coffee or dinner and giving them a refrigerator, a stove and maybe a car. Don't make me into a terrorist or spy, but I think there are more efficient ways of doing it.
In response to Mr. Desjarlais, if I'd had the time, I would have said, “This is not new. Go back to 1945 and the Gouzenko inquiry.”
6 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
With all due respect, Mr. Cappe, you would have to go for a lot of lunches and a lot of coffee to get up to $170,000. You would have to agree.
6 p.m.
Prof. Mel Cappe
That's my point exactly, sir.
6 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
Do you know what the contribution limits are for donating to a political campaign in this country?
6 p.m.
Prof. Mel Cappe
I think it's about $2,000 or something like that.
6 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
It's slightly less.
Is it really that difficult to imagine that, if an agent of the Communist regime in Beijing wanted to buy influence with a political candidate and found out the contribution limits were $1,700.... Is it that unreasonable to think the agent might go to Google and look up which other entities in this country have the same name as the current Prime Minister and try to buy influence that way?
6 p.m.
Prof. Mel Cappe
No, it's not unreasonable, but if I were going for it, I would go for the expatriate community. I would get a whole bunch of expats to pay $1,700 to put somebody in my pocket.
6 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
Are you aware that is what has been alleged in the case of Mr. Dong?
6 p.m.
Prof. Mel Cappe
I understand that. It makes a lot more sense.
6 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
You said earlier that the substantive issue of foreign interference is a very important one, and your concerns were echoed in Monday's meeting by Mr. Rosenberg, who said, “Anybody who has family left behind in an authoritarian state may be vulnerable”.
What public policy options are at the disposal of politicians to limit or eliminate this foreign interference? It is a legitimate concern, and a serious one, if you have people living and working here in Canada who are obeying all of Canada's laws but whose family members are being intimidated back in their home country.
What public policy options could you recommend to address the issue?
6 p.m.
Prof. Mel Cappe
Look, I haven't studied this carefully enough to recommend policy options, but I think there are issues of finance and there are issues of the expatriate community. I agree it goes to Iran and other countries, like Russia. I would look at not just finance. I would look at all the other ways of influencing. We've seen the Confucius Institutes for what they are. We've seen how universities—and my university—have withdrawn from doing research funded by China.
6 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
Thank you, Mr. Cappe.
How do I want to say this?
If someone breaks Canadian laws in Canada, that person is punished under Canadian laws, but if a person's family members are being intimidated back home.... We've heard stories about someone making a social media post in this country that is critical of a foreign regime, and the next day that individual's family member is getting a knock on the door and told they better shut their family member up or there will be trouble.
What public policy options do we have at our disposal as Canadian policy-makers?
6 p.m.
Prof. Mel Cappe
Unfortunately, you only have jurisdiction in Canada, but that's pretty broad. It gives you the capacity to lean on people who would otherwise be engaging in activity, even abroad. You can't make that an offence—what they do abroad—but if what they do in Canada is offensive, you can go after them.
I don't know how—
6 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much, Mr. Cappe.
I'm going to have to cut you off. I do want to get you to your dinner guests.
The last round of questions is for Mrs. Shanahan.
You have up to five minutes, please.
6 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you very much, Chair.
I, too, would like to thank the witness for appearing before us today and for being very generous with his experience and with his expertise in this matter.
Mr. Cappe, you mentioned several other organizations, institutes or foundations that were created during your time, or on or about your time, by the federal government. Can you talk to us about the usual governance practices around the creation and ongoing monitoring of, for example, the Institute for Canadian Citizenship that was for Adrienne Clarkson's work, as well as the Trudeau Foundation? For example, why not have the Auditor General auditing these organizations?
6:05 p.m.
Prof. Mel Cappe
Well, again, should the Auditor General be auditing the five-pin bowling association because it gets a grant from the government as well? I think the answer is no, but I agree with the principle that you should insist that there is an independent auditor, and there is because the law requires it.
In the example I had of IRPP, for instance, I was president. There was a $10-million grant originally. We had taken it up to about $42 million by the time I was president, and we were living off the interest of that. We had an audit committee. The chair of the audit committee was a member of the board, and he was the former governor of the Bank of Canada. Then we had an independent auditor, which happened to be Grant Thornton. I think we changed it in my time and, just in the interest of keeping it fresh, we went to another one of the big audit firms. I think that's the way to make sure it happens.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you for that.
I think you have seen some of the previous testimony in this committee. If not, just to review, it had to do with the receipt and the deposit of this donation that was by an incorporated entity registered in Quebec, which may or may not have been in foreign funds. I'm not going to get into all the details, but certainly, there were questions around this deposit and of course subsequently, with the recent media attention, around the foundation trying to return the money and what that meant.
Having been a banker in my former life, I know that these things are not cut and dried, and not everybody has that kind of accounting attention to detail. Would you have been concerned about the independent auditors at the Trudeau Foundation not doing their jobs properly, or indeed about the accounting firm that would have prepared the financial statements?
6:05 p.m.
Prof. Mel Cappe
No, I wouldn't have been worried if it was an accredited auditor and they respected the public sector audit board's rules and regulations. I think that's where you have to come back to.
I had this curiosity—I will now disclose something I shouldn't—but the former governor of the bank I mentioned was Gordon Thiessen, and he was also the chair of the public sector audit board, so the auditor was subject to him as well as him ensuring the auditor was doing their job.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Well, indeed....
Canada Revenue Agency officials were called before us as well, and members here were very insistent that the officials reveal whether they were doing an audit. There have been many attempts to obtain the actual confidential tax information that CRA would normally hold. Do you have any concerns about this? Shouldn't the CRA be providing this kind of documentation?
June 15th, 2023 / 6:05 p.m.
Prof. Mel Cappe
I think it should be respecting the privacy of the audited person, personne morale, the corporation. You have to have confidence that either CRA is doing its job or not. I think it's doing its job. I have no information other than I have confidence that it does its job. Judging by how it treats me, I know it does its job.
6:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much. That is the time.
Distinguished Fellow Mel Cappe, I want to thank you for your patience with us today. I hope you haven't stood up your dinner guests for too long.
I'm going to suspend this meeting so we can go in camera.
[Proceedings continue in camera]