Evidence of meeting #3 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:35 a.m.
NDP
March 16th, 2010 / 10:35 a.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
Mr. Beatty, you've made a recommendation here about Transport Canada. This was addressed at our last hearing last week where we saw that Transport Canada has doubled its incidents reports over the last decade, yet its staff hasn't come up at all.
At the same time, you indicate that you haven't had that relationship on this particular issue until January, but Transport Canada put out a November 26 notice entitled “Transport Canada applauds Toyota's action to protect consumers”. They talk about Transport Canada having worked with Toyota Canada on this issue. I assume that if they put it out on November 26 and they've worked with you on the issue, this goes back a ways. So we've obviously had a lot of interaction with Transport Canada on this issue considerably before the official notification that took place.
Can you table with this committee all the documents showing your interaction with Transport Canada from day one on this particular subject so we can actually see how Transport Canada has interacted with you, so that we understand the nature of your particular recommendation saying that Transport Canada needs more resources, that it needs an upgrade?
Without understanding how this process has taken place between Toyota and Transport Canada, we can't really identify where the issue lies. Is it possible that you can bring that information forward and give it to this committee?
10:35 a.m.
Managing Director, Toyota Canada Inc.
I may be able to. It depends whether there is any privileged information in the communication, so I'll have to go back and look at that. But as I said, our general view is that we'll support the committee with whatever information we can.
10:35 a.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
We can go in camera and deal with that information. Certainly we would appreciate that information, because quite obviously I have a concern as well with Transport Canada's resources, the number of inspectors, the rate of incidents going up and the rate of incidents moving away from major manufacturers into a whole variety of other manufacturers of automobiles across the world. That's where I see some of the issues arising. In fact, the relationship may have changed with you because of the additional work that Transport Canada takes on with many other suppliers of automobiles from around the world.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.
Mr. Tomihara, I have a question regarding the sticky pedal issue. I just want to hear a clear answer as to whether Toyota believes that, left unresolved, the sticky pedal represents a safety concern for those affected.
10:40 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Toyota Canada Inc.
Can you repeat your question on the sticky pedal issue--if left unresolved...?
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
If it's left unresolved, does the sticky pedal represent a safety issue for someone affected?
10:40 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Toyota Canada Inc.
As I mentioned before, the sticky pedal issue doesn't occur suddenly; it's a rare issue, and once you brake, the car will stop safely. However, we have to really promote to all customers who did not get the sticky pedal fixed that they visit a dealer as soon as possible.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Of course, for a driver—I'm just thinking about my driving experience—if I have my foot on the gas and I need to slow down suddenly for some reason, the first thing I do is take my foot off the gas, expecting that my car is going to slow down before I put my foot on the brake. If I rear-end the guy in front of me, I would think that would represent a safety concern for my family or whoever was in my vehicle.
10:40 a.m.
Managing Director, Toyota Canada Inc.
So the answer to the question is yes. We've taken the step of triggering a recall under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act. As far as we're concerned, there's an issue of safety. It needs to be remedied, and we're putting that remedy in the marketplace.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Okay, now in follow-up to that, based on what I've heard today in response to questions from several members of the committee, it sounds as though Toyota's basis for the timing of its reporting that initiates a recall is when Toyota has a solution to the problem, rather than when it determines there is a problem. That would be okay if the problem was with your stereo or your heated seats or something like that, but when it's a safety-related issue, it seems to me that is a significant problem.
Would Toyota acknowledge that this is more than just a communications issue, that there's an issue directly relating to the safety of Canadians? As the follow-up to that, will Toyota be reviewing its protocols and maybe changing its protocols on that basis?
10:40 a.m.
Managing Director, Toyota Canada Inc.
I guess there are two things. If there has been any lack of clarity about this, let me very clear about it right now. When we get a complaint or a notification of some sort of incident where there may be a safety defect, we take it very seriously and we act very quickly on it.
What I was saying, however, was that in trying to identify the solution, you not only, in this case, were trying to identify what it was but were applying various remedies to it, to say that you'd actually isolated what that problem was, that there wasn't something else hiding behind it.
That was the process of the engineering that we were doing: trying to understand that, well, we've found one thing that causes this problem, is that the only condition that's here? Because if we acted only that basis, that would have been a mistake for us and for our customers and Transport Canada.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
In follow-up to that, while the investigation was going on, after you determined, yes, there is an issue, we don't know what's causing it, was there ever any consideration given to issuing a recall in the interest of the safety of Canadian consumers? Obviously there would be a cost attached to that for Toyota, because you wouldn't have a solution for them right away and you would have to bridge the gap with some form of compensation in terms of a rental vehicle. Was there consideration given to that?
10:40 a.m.
President and Chief Operating Officer, Toyota Motor North America
As a matter of principle, yes, that is the case. In fact, in this sticky pedal situation, although it showed before we came up with the solution, there was a stop sale. Back then, when we announced a recall, we didn't have any confirmed solutions yet. Therefore we naturally had to go into a stop sale situation, which would be a principle going forward, too.
When we find a defect, a serious defect, we have to recall it, no matter what.
10:40 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ohayo gozaimasu. Welcome to the committee.
Being a professional engineer, I personally have my belief that if I have limitations in my own work, how can others believe otherwise? According NHTSA, 400% more vehicles with electronic throttle control systems had complaints compared to manual control vehicles. It raises the eyebrows. But on top of that, Exponent, the company, acknowledges some of the limitations of their system and then later claims to have looked at all those issues. Even though, Mr. Beatty, you have said that unintended acceleration never occurred, the firm does not believe its own results are scientifically valid. How can you suggest that their work is conclusive when they do not?
The second question is, you have known about this problem for many years, and what have you done to rectify it? Have you had discussions with Transport Canada? Transport Canada has a mandate to protect Canadian consumers. What have they done, and how are they satisfied that this problem does not exist any more?
10:45 a.m.
Managing Director, Toyota Canada Inc.
Mr. Chairman, it's important to separate U.S. and Canadian data when we're busy talking about what has appeared in which set of data.
It's also important to understand that when you have an increase in certain reports of incidents, it may not be just one vehicle component that changed at that time, that there were other vehicle components that also changed.
What I was saying earlier in terms of the NHTSA database, and to a more limited degree with the Transport Canada database, is that there are many things, separate, distinct conditions, that are being reported as acceleration issues, some of which don't actually produce acceleration. For example, through much of that period, there were complaints about vehicle hesitation, but it's recorded as an acceleration-related issue.
10:45 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
It's not about recording. It's that the company that is responsible for their design is not conclusive in their deliberations that they are satisfied 100%. They believe there are limitations, but contrary to that, you are saying that there is no unintended acceleration. That is where I want an answer from you.
10:45 a.m.
Managing Director, Toyota Canada Inc.
No, that's not what I said at all. I said there are in fact cases of confirmed unintended acceleration no matter which database you go to, and that exists across the industry for things such as cable binding in vehicles. Mechanical systems inherently show wear and tear and will give rise to those kinds of conditions. It's very important that you look at the data. Vehicle technology is rolled out in phases. On what is reported into the database by way of a complaint, you have to parse the data in order to understand the specific systems in the vehicle that may be contributing to something such as vehicle hesitation, as opposed to, as we would think about with unintended acceleration, a vehicle runaway. The conditions are different. They have different engineering causes.
In respect to the 17 cases in Canada that Transport Canada spoke to the committee about last week, the ones leading up to the period immediately before the recall, there was one specific case where you would have the type of condition you would refer to as sustained unintended acceleration. It was one of the vehicles that had a mechanical throttle assembly.
10:45 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to go back to what you said, Mr. Beatty. You reported 17 cases to Transport Canada, that is true. However, complaints were filed directly with Toyota Canada. Your corporate culture is such that you do not make them public. You are trying to convince us today that you set up a whole series of expert committees with Japan, etc., four months before there was a recall. That is too long to wait for the safety of the population.
You talked to us about technology. It evolves so quickly that we need to see all of the complaints quickly transferred to Transport Canada, and the department has to have the necessary budgets to keep a close eye on all of this with the equipment and the technology that is needed.
That is what I would have liked to hear you say today, you and Mr. Inaba. I would have liked you to say that you understand that there has to be an independent body in Canada to ensure safety. I understand that your business will do everything it can to prevent this from happening again, but if it does, we cannot have four months going by before a recall. At the very least, all of the complaints have to be compiled and Transport Canada has to be able to tell the population what is going on.
Once again, today, I see that you are trying to protect your corporation, but our job is to protect our citizens against your corporate culture, as it happens.
10:50 a.m.
Managing Director, Toyota Canada Inc.
Mr. Chairman, the only issue is that if the members of the committee and the Parliament of Canada would like verified complaints to go to Transport Canada, I think it's legitimately something the committee might want to take up and recommend by way of amendment to the legislation. Our practices are consistent with those across the industry. We have never refused any information to Transport Canada. If they ask us for anything, we give it to them. I have no objection to providing more information that the committee and Parliament would like us to provide.
10:50 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Mr. Beatty, you are not recommending that it be mandatory that all complaints be conveyed to Transport Canada.
Once again, we are certainly going to play our role as legislators and the committee will take what you have said to us into consideration. However, I must note that your corporation did not make that recommendation.
