Evidence of meeting #49 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gregory Percy  Vice-President, Operations, Greater Toronto Transit Authority; Urban Transit Authorities
Doug Kelsey  Chief Operating Officer, Greater Vancouver Transportation Authority (TransLink), Urban Transit Authorities
Nancy Fréchette  Vice-President, Operations, Agence métropolitaine de transport, Urban Transit Authorities
Christine Collins  National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
Mike Piché  National Representative, United Steelworkers
Michael Teeter  Advisor, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, meeting number 49.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, December 8, 2010, we are dealing with Bill C-33, an act to amend the Railway Safety Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Transportation Act.

Joining us here today, from the Urban Transit Authorities, are Mr. Gregory Percy, vice-president, operations, Greater Toronto Transit Authority; and Nancy Fréchette, vice-president, operations, Agence métropolitaine de transport.

Joining us live, via video conference, from Surrey, British Columbia, is Mr. Doug Kelsey, chief operating officer, Greater Vancouver Transportation Authority--TransLink.

Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. We've reviewed what the process is, so if you would, please open with your comments, and then we'll move to committee questions.

3:35 p.m.

Gregory Percy Vice-President, Operations, Greater Toronto Transit Authority; Urban Transit Authorities

Thank you.

We are urban transit authorities, publicly owned and funded transit regulatory authorities, established under provincial law, with local and regional mandates and accountability. We are committed to safe operations, and our safety records and investments show this.

Bill C-33, as presently written, would impose inappropriate, inefficient, and expensive burdens and risks on urban transit authorities, burdens and risks that cannot be justified or fulfilled, in our view. The three largest UTAs representing commuters in Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal--a total of more than 65 million riders annually--make this joint submission to this committee to ask that amendments be made to this legislation. We have shared interests and shared challenges, and we all serve the same public: the taxpayer.

In particular, we request that this honourable committee amend the definition of “company” and “local railway company”, which inappropriately but inevitably include UTAs, which already fall under provincial jurisdiction. We also ask that the committee exempt UTAs from the bill's requirement to apply for federal railway operating certificates.

The bill's definition of a local railway company expands the application and provisions regarding rules and all the proposed administrative and other compliance and filing measures in the Railway Safety Act. In our view, this is unjustified. Parliament has already acknowledged that the UTAs have a distinct and unique public nature. UTAs fall under provincial jurisdiction; each is subject to the special provincial legislation that created them and gives them authority.

We are governed by boards of directors that oversee and are responsible for the professional management of our commuters and other integrated operations. We are already subject to rigorous special checks and balances and taxpayer demands and public scrutiny, which differentiates us from commercial freight operators. UTAs are already publicly accountable, committed to safety, and committed to serving local taxpayers.

We encourage you to question the authority of Parliament to enact laws that impose new obligations and liabilities on provincial entities that are already responsible and accountable. You must question a bill that extends the reach of the federal minister to regulate and certify a provincial urban transit authority and to affect its local public mandate.

None of the urban transit authorities in Canada own all of their own railway lines. They operate on federally regulated host lines, which are owned by federally regulated railway companies. The UTAs enter into contracts with those same host companies to ensure the safe management of the railway. These agreements require the UTAs to undertake extensive and onerous responsibilities and to incur substantial liabilities for their passenger operations. These include the acquisition of insurance coverage, as required by the host railways, which agree to maintain their lines in conformity with existing federal laws and prevailing standards. In exchange, the host must offer a safe railway upon which to operate.

UTAs have no authority over the host railway to inspect or audit them. We cannot manage their infrastructure or staff or contractors. We cannot hold the host accountable if the host departs from required federal standards. It makes no sense, therefore, to require UTAs to be accountable for their hosts' actions as part of a federal certification requirement or as an extension of federal regulatory oversight.

Safety is at the heart of this legislation, and it's important to put on the record that TransLink, Metrolinx's Go Transit, and Agence métropolitaine de transport have operated and continue to operate among the safest railway operations in Canada. It cannot be said that Bill C-33 was introduced because of any safety concerns about passenger trains operated by UTAs in Canada. Transport Canada's representatives must concede and have in this committee conceded this.

The report of the rail safety review panel identified no pressing regulatory issue or concern in relation to UTAs. It did not find any need or justification for making a legislative change to sweep us unnecessarily under federal oversight, which would duplicate existing provisions and processes, would be neither flexible nor efficient, and would not really add to safety.

Bill C-33 is in error in attempting to hold provincial UTAs and their senior officers accountable for what they themselves cannot reasonably control or direct on the lines of federal railways.

The bill also contemplates extensive new obligations to keep and preserve records in order to comply with the federal minister's demand for information. This is another onerous, expensive, and totally unnecessary requirement to which UTAs should not be required to submit. We already have reporting and documentary obligations to our constituting authorities. Here again, Bill C-33 proposes another onerous, expensive, and totally unnecessary burden on UTAs.

All of these proposals in Bill C-33 represent considerable costs for UTAs. Unlike commercial freight railways, UTAs, by their very nature, have no means to recover all of their costs. Additional expenses caused by unnecessary and burdensome requirements will ultimately mean that either taxpayer and commuter support of UTAs will increase, or that necessary growth in urban transit will be constrained, or that service to the public will be reduced, all because of an unnecessarily broad definition of "company" or "local railway company".

For all these reasons, we, the urban transit authorities of Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal, ask this honourable committee to amend the provisions in Bill C-33 to exempt urban transit authorities, already recognized and federally defined, from the scope and application of the bill. In particular, exempt UTAs from the newly defined terms "company" and "local railway company" and from the requirement to apply and qualify for a federal railway operating certificate.

We thank you for this opportunity to make these submissions. I'd be pleased to entertain any questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Dhaliwal.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank both of you and Mr. Kelsey, who is from my hometown, Surrey.

Federal crown corporations and provinces are exempt from monetary penalties under Bill C-33. Does that apply to the provincial crown corporations and local transit authorities as well, or should it?

3:40 p.m.

Vice-President, Operations, Greater Toronto Transit Authority; Urban Transit Authorities

Gregory Percy

If I understand the question, you're talking about monetary penalties for non-compliance. Is that what you're saying?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

Right.

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Operations, Greater Toronto Transit Authority; Urban Transit Authorities

Gregory Percy

In our view, that's unnecessary from a UTA perspective. We think that we already have the rigour in our safety process and it does not require that extra layer of rigour. In our view, it should not apply to urban transit authorities.

3:45 p.m.

Doug Kelsey Chief Operating Officer, Greater Vancouver Transportation Authority (TransLink), Urban Transit Authorities

I would like to add that part of a monetary penalty, I would have to believe, is intended as a consequence for poor behaviour. I believe, in our case, that we have other significant accountabilities and checks and balances so that this in fact is not warranted. Let me explain, if I may.

First, we are a product of government, and we consume taxpayer dollars. What goes with that is freedom of information. We are subject to scrutiny through the Freedom of Information Act, which allows media and the public at large to keep us under intense scrutiny. In addition to that, we also have a very public-board type of legislation.

I think the monetary penalties are not required for our existing performance or on a going-forward basis because of all these other accountability mechanisms that are in place.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

The committee was told that right now, if one of your cars has some unsafe wheels, Transport Canada has to go after CP or CN. Why shouldn't they be able to contact you directly?

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Operations, Greater Toronto Transit Authority; Urban Transit Authorities

Gregory Percy

We would have no problem with Transport Canada contacting us directly. But I would add that the model today works. Again, our safety record is admirable.

You are correct, Transport Canada goes through the class one railways today. We'd be more than pleased if they came directly to us. Our view is that they should be able to do that, but we don't feel that Bill C-33 is the mechanism to enable that to happen.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

Through what mechanism would you like to see that happening, then?

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Operations, Greater Toronto Transit Authority; Urban Transit Authorities

Gregory Percy

We would have no problem working with Transport Canada to create our own memorandum of understanding in terms of the rigour they feel is appropriate to manage safety with us. Again, we hold ourselves up to high standards. But we are more than pleased to work directly with them in a different set of circumstances from what is outlined in Bill C-33.

3:45 p.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Greater Vancouver Transportation Authority (TransLink), Urban Transit Authorities

Doug Kelsey

To help add to the response, I'm just going to hold up here an example of a Transport Canada inspection sheet on West Coast Express here in Vancouver, where in fact Transport Canada has inspected us directly, not even through the railways. So in this case it's just a small list of things like decals and such that needed to be replaced. So that mechanism does exist today in actual practice.

So if we relate it to whether there is legislation that is required here, I think for our perspective the answer is absolutely no. That must mean there is some significant behaviour in the relationship with urban transit authorities that should be put in place to correct something that is absent. As an example, this inspection sheet helps fulfill that.

To support this, we also use a safety management system. In fact, we help train Transport Canada officials on actually how to use and implement the safety management system. So they have been through verification processes with us.

Therefore I come back to whether legislation is required as it relates to urban transit authorities. From my perspective, the answer is it is absolutely not required, when in fact—just make the request.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

Mr. Kelsey, Transport Canada told our committee that you asked for them to audit your safety management system but they do not have any jurisdiction to do so. So why shouldn't we give them that jurisdiction so they can come and audit?

3:45 p.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Greater Vancouver Transportation Authority (TransLink), Urban Transit Authorities

Doug Kelsey

You don't always need the legal instruments and legislation to do sometimes the right thing. The examples I just outlined for you do not require legislation at all. We invite not only Transport Canada in to do inspections, we invite all types of people in to inspect us.

In fact, part of our own practice is we go and get external third parties to help look inside our business to help us be on top of our safety game, if you will. So I don't think the legislation is required that supports it at all.

February 17th, 2011 / 3:50 p.m.

Nancy Fréchette Vice-President, Operations, Agence métropolitaine de transport, Urban Transit Authorities

Allow me to add...

3:50 p.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Greater Vancouver Transportation Authority (TransLink), Urban Transit Authorities

Doug Kelsey

I'm sorry. I would also like to add that if we go back to the 2006 Railway Safety Act review, I believe there were something like 56 recommendations specifically in that extensive piece of work, and not one of them was related to the need to shape new behaviour for our agencies.

And if you then take that and look at Transport Canada's existing behaviour around risk-based inspections, I think one would conclude that our own risk profile and behaviours are such that they inspect us relatively infrequently, but they're welcome any time. But it really would lead to whether the legislation is appropriate for the behaviours that are absent. I would suggest no.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Ms. Fréchette.

3:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Operations, Agence métropolitaine de transport, Urban Transit Authorities

Nancy Fréchette

Thank you.

In fact, I wish to state that AMT is already in compliance with the Railway Safety Act through the contractual agreements that we already have with the railway companies. The railway companies are required to respect the Railway Safety Act regulations.

We must remember that the Act aims, first and foremost, to regulate the safety of those railways that fall under the jurisdiction of the federal government as well as those belonging to host railways, such as CP and CN. These railway companies impose upon AMT consequential requirements, for example in the area of costs, in order, precisely, to respect all of these regulations.

Furthermore, this bill appears to us to be impracticable given that CP and CN will not allow us to interfere in their internal management, which is very important to mention. Also, AMT has no authority to impose anything on either CP or CN.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Mr. Gaudet, it is now your turn.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

I would like you to follow up on the answer given in response to Mr. Dhaliwal's question.

Do you not believe that if AMT becomes subject to the Railway Safety Act, Quebec will be required to report to federal authorities, which would be contrary to the Constitution?

3:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Operations, Agence métropolitaine de transport, Urban Transit Authorities

Nancy Fréchette

In the present situation, AMT fulfils the primary objective of the bill. Indeed, we fail to understand the purpose of the proposed change, other than to interfere in an area of provincial jurisdiction.

At the Transports Québec level, there is legislation that applies, namely the Act to Ensure Safety in Guided Land Transport. We therefore have that possibility, through the province; we have the act and the regulations. Further, our province can mandate Transport Canada or another authority, and we respect the authorities that are in place.

Therefore, in Quebec, we are already regulated by our legislation. And when we find ourselves in federal territory, we are in compliance, because we have contracts with the railway companies whose lines we use.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

You have just stated that Quebec railway companies use federal railway lines, under contract with CN and CP, who are both subject to the Railway Safety Act, and already ensure that the rules and standards are applied and respected.

Does Transport Canada not already have the necessary authority to ensure that these companies falling under federal jurisdiction respect the requirements of the Railway Safety Act? In your opinion, why has such a burden been imposed upon railway companies in Quebec such as AMT?

3:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Operations, Agence métropolitaine de transport, Urban Transit Authorities

Nancy Fréchette

I will somewhat repeat what I stated earlier in response to your previous question, because I was perhaps not clear enough. We have a provincial law, and therefore, in this case, it truly is, in our view, a matter of interference in an area of provincial jurisdiction.

With regard to your last question, as I was saying, AMT is already in compliance with the Railway Safety Act, through the contractual agreements that we have with the railway companies, which are required to respect the Railway Safety Act Regulations. This is why I am of the view that Transport Canada already has sufficient levers to enforce the regulations that are in place.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

Do you believe that, with Bill C-33, the requirement on the part of provincial companies to adopt these standards will amount to duplication, bringing about useless additional costs which will in reality be passed on to taxpayers and users?