Evidence of meeting #49 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gregory Percy  Vice-President, Operations, Greater Toronto Transit Authority; Urban Transit Authorities
Doug Kelsey  Chief Operating Officer, Greater Vancouver Transportation Authority (TransLink), Urban Transit Authorities
Nancy Fréchette  Vice-President, Operations, Agence métropolitaine de transport, Urban Transit Authorities
Christine Collins  National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
Mike Piché  National Representative, United Steelworkers
Michael Teeter  Advisor, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

My last one is that 3.1 specifies that the minister is responsible for the development and regulation of matters to which this act applies, including safety and security.

I would argue that actually the federal government would be negligent and the minister would be negligent if they actually did not monitor and regulate federal railways properly.

That's what I think the position is today. We have an opportunity and we've heard from many different parties: CN and CP as well as teamsters and unions right across the country that want this piece of legislation.

So what are the extra costs that will be such a burden as to not make sure that we as legislators and parliamentarians can keep the most precious cargo in Canada safe, and that is passengers? How much is it going to cost?

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I'll ask each witness to present, but we are very short on time, so please make it brief.

4:25 p.m.

Vice-President, Operations, Greater Toronto Transit Authority; Urban Transit Authorities

Gregory Percy

I think I actually responded to that question. Because the railway operating certificate is not specific about the obligations to be imposed, it's very difficult to come up with a cost estimate.

What I did say--and I think it would be echoed by my colleagues--is that the incremental cost is the cost of inspectors, compliance, and engineers looking at maintenance inspection records to validate accuracy. The degree of rigour is not outlined in the railway operating certificate, so you can't estimate it. But it's an incremental cost to what we're doing today, assuming the railways will even let you do it. I've said before that this is not information they would typically allow us to look at, because it's not our information; it's theirs.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Can I hear from the other witnesses?

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Are there any other witnesses who have anything to add?

4:25 p.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Greater Vancouver Transportation Authority (TransLink), Urban Transit Authorities

Doug Kelsey

First, on the consultation on the bill, I've been through other bill consultations in the past, and this was nowhere close to the same standard. If we go back to 2007 and the enactment of Bill C-11, we were highly included and contacted directly by Transport Canada. That is not the case here. I'll be honest, I don't spend all my time tracking the newspapers. But government to government, we have a very strong and proactive relationship. Frankly, the first time I heard about this was at second reading.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

You don't keep track of newspapers, but what could be more important than federal regulation of your very business? I think you would keep track of it. You knew this was taking place, sir, and you never made a written submission. Quite frankly, I don't think that's acceptable.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I'm going to interrupt. The time has ended for this meeting. We have guests waiting to come forward.

I thank our guests for being here. We appreciate it.

We're going to take a short recess while our next guests come forward.

Thank you very much for your input.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Welcome back to part two of three of today's meeting.

Joining us now at the table, from the Union of Canadian Transportation Employees, is Ms. Christine Collins, national president. On behalf of the United Steelworkers is Mike Piché, national representative. I know we have a new guest who I don't have on my list. Maybe you can introduce him, Ms. Collins, when you make your opening comment.

We are tight for time. I'll ask members to keep their questions as short as possible.

I will ask Ms. Collins to present.

4:35 p.m.

Christine Collins National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees

Thank you very much.

I welcome the opportunity to be here. With me is Michael Teeter, who is my technical advisor.

The Union of Canadian Transportation Employees is the national union for rail, aviation, marine, and road safety inspectors. All of our inspector members are Transport Canada and Transportation Safety Board employees.

For the past four years UCTE has been making the case to Transport Canada, to SCOTIC, and to other interested parties that as we increasingly move into a safety management system world, we require, to as great an extent as possible, a consistent set of principles that will apply for all modes of transport. We need this so everyone can better understand that the idea of having transport companies managing safety is a good thing and not a bad thing. A public understanding and confidence in the transportation safety system is critical for all modes of transportation, and especially for rail, given the rail safety performance over the last years.

The UCTE prescription for an enhanced public confidence in transportation safety as we increasingly move towards SMS involves the following principles:

In all transportation safety statutes, the government and the Minister of Transport are legally responsible, and this responsibility does not leave despite the delegation powers in transportation statutes. Therefore, any ministerial delegations should be very carefully applied, and they should be applied with considerable restraint.

We recommend that only fully trained government inspectors should be responsible for legislative and regulatory compliance and oversight. This inspection and compliance layer should be present and required in all SMS statutes.

Any delegation to non-government workers and organizations should be governed by a conflict of interest provision. Conflicts and perceived conflicts should never exist. Inspectors who are responsible for SMS certification and SMS operations should be different from those who are responsible for regulatory compliance and oversight.

There should be clear whistleblower protections and provisions for reporting to third parties, in all transportation safety statutes. These protections should also apply and be available to the government inspectorate.

The transportation statutes, including Bill C-33, should require the regulator to maintain the highest level of safety. This level should be clearly and unambiguously defined in either legislation or regulations, or both.

I will say that UCTE has an excellent relationship with Luc Bourdon, director general, and with his staff at rail safety. We support BillC-33 in principle, and like the other unions you have had before you, we do have some specific suggestions for change.

Let's face it, rail is a bit different from aviation or marine; there are fewer operators. SMS is not being certified and then handed off to the private sector. SMS is being implemented with regulations approved by the Governor in Council. The delegations in Bill C-33 are much more restrained than they are with either aviation or marine.

On balance, we are much more pleased with the rail safety regime than we are with either aviation or marine. We do have some amendments to propose, and comments on each.

We recommend that railway safety inspectors, enforcement officers, and screening officers be federal employees, with appropriate certifications and training. It is not explicit in the bill that these positions be government positions.

While there is a requirement that government inspectors be responsible for the oversight of federal-provincial agreements, there is no such clarification for the three positions specified in the bill. The bill seems to imply that the minister could delegate these powers to any individual. We would recommend that the statute specify that the people in these positions be government employees.

We should put these delegation and responsibility issues in context. Look what is happening in aviation and marine.

A recent B.C. Supreme Court decision has extended Transport Canada liability to the delegation of ministerial authority to a private contractor who was certifying the airworthiness of aircraft. Leaving aside the issue of the performance of that contractor, the contractor appeared to be in a clear conflict of interest, and people lost their lives because of it. We should never allow this to happen.

In the last year, on the basis of interventions by UCTE and others and a number of reports of the Transportation Safety Board, the Minister of Transport removed the ministerial delegations for the Canadian Business Aviation Association. Again, leaving aside the performance of the association, how could a trade association possibly be effective at the regulatory oversight and compliance of its own members?

We have a similar problem developing in marine, where there are proposals to delegate ministerial powers to organizations that are suppliers to the very companies they would be responsible to regulate. How could this possibly work in real life? We should never allow these same situations to arise with rail, even if that is not the government's intent at the time legislation is introduced and passed. When statutory delegations are not restrained, there is a tendency for regulators to broadly delegate in the interests of cost savings. We believe this is wrong and is not supported by the will of Parliament or the interests of the travelling public.

If Bill C-33 requires that the inspection positions be government employees, then this problem cannot exist.

We require a definition and standard for "highest level of safety", and make the system responsible to meet this standard.

We are very pleased that the bill makes reference to highest level of safety in proposed paragraph 47.1(1)(a). The reference is to risk management analysis and remedial actions only. Unfortunately, the term is not defined, nor does it apply across the board. We think it needs to, in the same manner and phrase as was proposed in the SCOTIC-amended Aeronautics Act that died on the order paper two elections ago. Simply make the whole railway safety system accountable to the "highest level of safety" and require that this be defined in the accompanying regulations.

We require third-party whistleblower protections.

The U.S. experience and whistleblower remedies are ones that we should all study. The United States aviation safety statute provides for an independent office for whistleblowers, both government inspectors and private sector employees. The fact is that even government inspectors are concerned about punitive actions that can be taken by government and private sector management, should those inspectors take a hard line against an operator. With today's fast-paced world, the pressures to operate quickly and on time are so great that many safety infractions can be overlooked for fear of the extra costs and reprisals associated with safety enforcement. We recommend that you put out the compliant process to a third party that is completely independent of commercial and political pressures.

Like the teamsters who appeared before you on February 10, we support the appeal to the SCOTIC provision that was inserted into the Aeronautics Act. We also support the explicit reference to the Canada Labour Code in the statute. We would also like to see these provisions added here.

In conclusion, like our brothers and sisters in other unions, we do not want this bill to die on the order paper and not be reintroduced. We need to give Transport Canada's rail safety program the tools this bill gives them to do their job better. We are not asking for significant and difficult changes to the bill. You could do these changes and still get this bill through the House and Senate quickly. We sincerely hope you will do this.

Thank you.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much. As you committed to, you were on time.

Mr. Piché, do you have some opening comments?

February 17th, 2011 / 4:45 p.m.

Mike Piché National Representative, United Steelworkers

No, you can move.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much.

Mr. Dhaliwal or Mr. McCallum?

I have Mr. McCallum.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

I'd like to thank you very much for your presentations.

I will ask two questions. First, in terms of the safety level, you say we need a definition of “highest level of safety”, but you don't really suggest what that definition should be. Do you have any suggestions on that subject?

4:45 p.m.

Michael Teeter Advisor, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees

We recommend that it be defined in regulation or in the statute.

You may recall, with regard to the Aeronautics Act, amendments that were before this House. It was added by the committee to specify highest level of safety--again, not defined, we just assumed that the government would define it in regulations.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Thank you.

4:45 p.m.

Advisor, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees

Michael Teeter

If I could just comment again.

There are international organizations that do provide these kinds of definitions. In the case of air it's ICAO, and rail as well. It's not that hard to find. We just didn't feel it was appropriate to recommend it here.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

In terms of whistleblower protection, you advocate greater protection. The teamsters were before us recently and they proposed a direct line from whistleblowers to Transport Canada. You seem to have a different mechanism in mind. Would you go along with the teamster proposal, or do you think something else is better?

4:45 p.m.

National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees

Christine Collins

I think it is critical that we have good whistleblower protection. I believe an independent party one step removed from Transport Canada would be the best option. Then there is no confusion or politics at play.

It has been seen in the United States that, for whistleblowing, the way they have it actually works.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Dhaliwal.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Collins, on the question that Mr. McCallum asked with regard to whistleblowers, why would you not like to see Transport Canada manage that? I don't understand why you would want to give it to an outside agency to deal with whistleblowing situations.

4:45 p.m.

Advisor, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees

Michael Teeter

You have to differentiate between people who work for the railway companies and people we represent who inspect for the government. Obviously, for the people who work for the railway companies, an appeal to Transport Canada represents, to them, a good way to deal with management that might be difficult.

In the case of the inspector, of course we can't very well appeal to the bosses at Transport Canada if we see things the inspector can't do anything about. We do have examples we can share with you.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

If you are saying this, then you are raising a suspicion. You're telling me that the inspectors working for Transport Canada.... On the one hand, you are saying that those people who should be inspecting should be government or Transport Canada employees; but on the other hand, you're telling me that you have a question mark with respect to their integrity and credibility.

4:45 p.m.

National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees

Christine Collins

No, I don't think one is linked to the other. I think it's clear that we strongly believe in support and that the responsibility for the inspection should remain with Transport Canada and within the inspectorate community.

When you're talking about whistleblowing and looking to get things fixed, the question is, would inspectors who work for Transport Canada or the Transportation Safety Board, if they were housed within Transport Canada, be going to their own management to complain about their own management? There are all kinds of questions on how there would be any kind of protection there.

One of the examples that could be used is the airport sector that has been delegated SMS responsibilities. There are a few very small airports that remain with Transport Canada and you have inspectors going in to inspect their own colleagues. Where do they do the whistleblowing or where do they report if they have a problem with the airport manager who is also a Transport Canada employee? In the case of the few airports that are left, are they going to try to whistleblow or make a statement against somebody who is actually superior to them within their own organization? That's difficult.

Having a totally independent office makes a very strong statement to everybody, to the public and private sector, to those who want to use whistleblowing, and to the federal government employees who use whistleblowing. Having it as a completely separate entity altogether shows that we believe and will protect those who come forward to identify wrongdoing.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

I come from a professional world, being an engineer and a land surveyor. We go out, and we do our own work. If the government subcontracts the work to an outside agency that does not have a conflict of interest, why would it make a difference whether those persons were employed by Transport Canada or by the outside agency, if those individuals have met the highest standards of the professional world?