Evidence of meeting #19 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was railway.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Wendy Tadros  Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Kathy Fox  Board Member, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Kirby Jang  Director, Investigations Rail/Pipeline, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Jean Laporte  Chief Operating Officer, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
David Jeanes  President, Transport Action Canada
Daniel Gardner  Professor, Law Faculty, Université Laval, As an Individual

9:35 a.m.

Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Wendy Tadros

In the United States, positive train control was required by Congress, so a number of railways on a number of lines in the United States are moving towards that. I understand it's quite a challenge in terms of technology and in terms of money.

When we came to look at the situation in Canada following the Burlington accident, we decided there are a number of systems out there and we're not going to be prescriptive and say that it has to be PTC. We've outlined the safety problem and said there could be a number of ways whereby you get to that result, that you fix that safety problem.

This is a matter that I believe has been sent to an advisory committee and we're hoping there will be some positive movement on it.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Precisely, we should have an integrated system with the United States when it comes to DOT-111 tank cars. In the case of automatic braking, can you confirm that the United States are further ahead than Canada when it comes to implementing this safety measure?

9:40 a.m.

Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Wendy Tadros

They absolutely are further ahead in the United States.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Let us be brief, as I do not have much time left.

You mentioned the Auditor General's report. As we know, he sharply criticized Transport Canada. He pointed out the lack of resources that would allow the minister to follow up on problematic cases. Could you please quickly tell us which portions of the auditor general's report you support?

9:40 a.m.

Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Wendy Tadros

I'll have to go high level since there isn't a lot of time—

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Very quickly.

9:40 a.m.

Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Wendy Tadros

—but, basically, I think that even though the Auditor General found problems with the way Transport Canada was overseeing safety management systems in transportation, if you read that report carefully, the Auditor General is strongly endorsing the notion and the principle of a safety management system.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Lawrence Toet Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Thank you to our panel this morning. It's been very enlightening.

The issue of two-man crews has been brought up a couple of times and I wanted to touch very quickly with regard to the implementation of that. My understanding is a new directive that came out of your initial assessment of the Lac-Mégantic incident was for a permanent move to the use of the two-man crews. Is that also your understanding? With respect to the transportation of dangerous goods, is that the minister's directive?

9:40 a.m.

Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Wendy Tadros

We'd have to go back and see if there was a time period on that. Yes, it was put in place very quickly, but whether it will continue ad infinitum, I can't speak to that.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Lawrence Toet Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB

It is my understanding that it is a permanent—

9:40 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Jean Laporte

Only to the transportation of dangerous goods; it doesn't apply to all trains.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Lawrence Toet Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB

That's correct. But it is a very important issue that has been addressed in a fairly timely fashion based on initial recommendations, so it's good to see that.

I wanted to touch a little on one issue. In your look at the system-wide review of many variables, in dealing with your recommendations, you talk about the transportation of dangerous goods and how they're carried by railways. You gave one quick example of that, the maintenance of the highest standards of the track and speeds that are appropriate. How do you see the whole network aspect of it? You do talk about that, the system-wide review of all the variables in the complete network. How do you see that being brought forward through this recommendation that you've brought up on the risk assessments? How do we ensure that these steps are being followed?

9:40 a.m.

Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Wendy Tadros

There are two ways of doing it. You can have the railways file their plans with Transport Canada and have Transport Canada review them, or they can do it on an audit basis, and go out and choose based on the highest risk and audit those sections. There are a couple of different options that would be open to the regulator.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Lawrence Toet Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB

It was interesting to note also in your presentation the changes we've seen. You talked about five years ago there were 500 cars moving oil and 160,000 in the last year. We've seen such a change in that, and yet today you also talked about the challenges we also face in that many of our centres, whether they are small centres or large centres, have grown up around the tracks and have moved in around the tracks to a large degree. The communities have actually moved closer to the tracks rather than farther away.

9:40 a.m.

Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Wendy Tadros

Yes, that’s correct.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Lawrence Toet Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB

That's all part of that whole situation of how we come up with regulations that take into account those different factors. We have a lot more dangerous goods being moved as we see growth and expansion, and yet we also see growth towards the railways themselves.

How are we going to deal with this going forward? Have you given any thought to that at this point, or are there any recommendations you would be bringing forward concerning that?

9:40 a.m.

Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Wendy Tadros

I think that really was the thrust of the three recommendations we made in January.

The first one is to get those class 111 tank cars out of there as soon as possible so that they are not running through our communities. The second is route planning and analysis, and following up with risk assessment to ensure that the operations over those routes where dangerous goods are being carried are the safest possible. The third is to make sure you have the resources in place if there is an accident so that you can contain the danger and the risk.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you. We never have enough time, but we have come to the end of the session.

I want to thank all of you for being here today. We have some more witnesses coming forth, so we are going to suspend for about two minutes. Thanks again.

9:51 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

We will resume for the second half of our meeting.

I'd like to welcome Mr. Jeanes and Mr. Gardner. Thanks for being here, gentlemen.

Without further ado, we'll turn it over to Mr. Jeanes, for 10 minutes or less, please.

April 1st, 2014 / 9:51 a.m.

David Jeanes President, Transport Action Canada

Thank you, Chair.

Transport Action Canada is a national volunteer-based organization and a registered charity. We were created back in 1976 in response to an invitation from the government for public participation in planning the future of transcontinental rail travel. At that time we were known as Transport 2000. We later extended our area of interest to all public transportation modes—intercity bus, ferries, urban transit. We have had a long-standing interest in transportation safety and are frequently called on by the media for comment on safety matters.

We have affiliate organizations across Canada. One of our affiliates, le Groupe TRAQ, organizes the annual colloquium on railway safety in Quebec City, which I attended last week, along with many industry and government experts. We also have a strong involvement with airline passenger safety. This dates back to the Swissair flight 111 crash in 1998 when, with other groups, we founded an air passenger safety group that continues to consult with Transport Canada on an ongoing basis on air safety matters.

We do believe that statistically air and rail, which are generally federally regulated transportation modes, are very safe. However, accidents, particularly those with multiple fatalities, dangerous goods spills, or major fires do attract considerable media attention and raise public concern. We note that highway rail collisions or pedestrian accidents at rail crossings or on railway lines are actually a very small number when compared to the accident statistics for the highway mode. Nevertheless, we believe that rail crossing safety should be a continuing major concern of the federal government and particularly here in Ottawa where, in September of last year, there were six passenger fatalities on a double-decker transitway bus, an accident that should have been avoidable. Hopefully, we'll find out precisely why that accident happened before too long.

We are strongly supportive of the expertise and independence of the Transportation Safety Board and particularly of its openness about ongoing investigations. We understand the importance of not trying to second-guess the reasons for an accident before the TSB's investigations are complete. We note the items that have already been discussed today on the TSB watch list, and one which we feel particularly strongly about is the need for positive train control. Ms. Tadros mentioned to you the progress that's being made because of legislative action in the United States. Certainly in many other parts of the world, positive train control is the standard rather than something to think about sometime in the future. The TSB has been recommending it strongly, particularly since the VIA Rail accident at Saint-Charles-de-Bellechasse, Quebec, in February 2010, and the Burlington accident in 2012.

I will say as an aside on positive train control that I personally was involved in Ottawa with the planning of our O-Train here, which is the only federally regulated railway that does operate with positive train control. The O-Train has one-man operation. There is a German-based system that ensures the train cannot exceed allowable speeds at stations or cannot pass signals that are at stop. That technology has permitted that system to achieve a complete absence of fatalities or injuries among passengers over its more than 12 years of operation. Today it carries more than 14,000 passengers a day. It would be good if that kind of technology had been extended to other railways in Canada.

We're also concerned, very much, about the issue of misinterpretation of rail signals, which was mentioned also by Ms. Tadros. Modern signal indications, particularly on high-speed lines, such as in Burlington, are purely visual; there is no backup and they're very complex for the train crews to interpret and react to correctly. In this context, the recommendations from the TSB regarding video and audio monitoring of locomotive engineers in the cab, as well as the monitoring of what is in front of the train, which involves cameras looking forward, are very important.

We participated in a number of railway safety events. We submitted to the Railway Safety Act review panel, which reported back in 2007. We've appeared before the House of Commons, before this committee, on air safety. We've appeared before the Senate committee on the amendments to the Railway Safety Act, where we strongly supported the introduction of safety management systems.

In May last year we spoke at a conference of the International System Safety Society of Canada on system safety in rail transportation. We attended the Canadian Transportation Research Forum seminar in January of this year on rail safety and transporting dangerous goods in Canada and, as I mentioned also, the TRAQ conference in Quebec City last week.

Looking at another recommendation of the TSB that relates to alternate routes for dangerous goods transport, we have a strong concern right now about the abandonment of historical main railway lines which is putting our national rail system at risk. For example, when Canadian Pacific sold its line that used to operate through northern Maine to Saint John, New Brunswick, this essentially reduced our rail network to a single route east of Quebec City, which totally disrupted train transport between the port of Halifax and central Canada when a major derailment occurred in Montmagny a few years ago.

In the last two years we've seen abandonment of the historic transcontinental railway lines in the Ottawa Valley, leaving only trackage through the greater Toronto area to connect eastern and western Canada, with no alternate routes that avoid that populated area. This year we're about to see the abandonment of the historic Intercolonial Railway segment in New Brunswick between Newcastle and Bathurst, which will leave only one railway route into New Brunswick. We think that's an area which the federal government and Parliament should be concerned about.

Looking back at passenger transportation safety, which is our main concern, obviously, since the disastrous Hinton crash in 1986 when 23 people died, we've had a very good record with VIA Rail. VIA has actually only had three passenger fatalities in accidents since then: two at Coteau, Quebec, in 1992, and one at Biggar, Saskatchewan, in 1997. It has of course had accidents causing the deaths of train crews: the tragic loss of three lives in Burlington in 2012 and of two engineers in Kemptville, Ontario in 1999, but essentially travel by train in Canada is extremely safe.

With respect to technology investment, the railways must continue to invest in technology as well as in their processes for safety management systems. An example of the failure to do that was the Toronto subway accident in 1995 where 40-year-old automatic train-stop technology failed to operate correctly and there were three fatalities. That, of course, was not a federally regulated rail system, but it's still an example of what happens when you fail to go with the latest technology.

In fact, in other countries that do have modern technology for automatic train control, there have still been serious accidents where there were gaps or flaws in the system. The two most serious accidents were in Britain: at Ladbroke Grove in 1999, with 31 deaths when two trains collided head on because of a failure to observe signals and a failure to use the existing positive train control on that system; and an earlier accident in 1988 with 35 deaths, again involving a failure of an outdated signalling system. In Spain, the crash at Santiago de Compostela with a high number of fatalities last year was a result of a bad design interface on completely new track between two different and incompatible signalling systems. Investment in technology is important.

To wrap up, again, Transport Action supported the safety management systems in the Railway Safety Act. We did express in the past some concern about the resources of short-line railways particularly to afford the implementation of these measures, though the major railways clearly have been making the appropriate investments in introducing that safety culture. The Lac-Mégantic accident may in fact show a failure of the application of SMS, but we await the TSB report on that.

I will point out that those concerns, particularly about the ability of smaller companies to implement SMS, were previously raised by Mr. Justice Virgil Moshansky, who led the inquiry into the Air Ontario crash in Dryden, Ontario, in 1989, obviously long before this. Mr. Justice Moshansky expressed concerns to the Railway Safety Act review panel back in 2007 and more recently about whether the safety regime can be effectively implemented everywhere.

I think those are my main points, and I'd be happy to answer any questions.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

You were right on time, Mr. Jeanes. Thank you very much.

Mr. Gardner, for 10 minutes or less, please.

9:55 a.m.

Prof. Daniel Gardner Professor, Law Faculty, Université Laval, As an Individual

I will try to do the same.

Good morning, everybody.

In a perfect world I would make my presentation in English but the problem is my English is only good after the first hour, and I don't think we're going to be here after an hour, so allow me to do it in French, please.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

No problem.

9:55 a.m.

Daniel Gardner

Good morning to all.

I was invited to appear, but not told why. I will therefore be perceptive. Given that I am a specialist in liability, insurance and assessment of damages, I suppose I am here to speak about compensation rather than prevention.

Since this morning, we have heard a great deal about safety and prevention. Those are extremely important and must be seen to. That being said, we will never be able to reduce the risk of railway accidents to zero, anymore than we can with highway accidents or airline accidents. We must therefore consider, following the Lac-Mégantic disaster, creating a better compensation system than the one we presently have.

The evidence will no doubt be painful for the families of the 47 deceased victims. The compensation process will take over a decade and will provide extremely disheartening results. In fact, I predict that whatever compensation is offered to the victims, if there is a commitment with respect to liability, will not amount to anything by the end of the process as there is inadequate insurance coverage.

Let us set out a fundamental rule. So-called adequate insurance coverage is not a panacea. Even if we replaced MMA in the Lac-Mégantic accident by CN or CP, who both have insurance coverage of $1 billion or $1.5 billion depending on the type of disaster, we would still find ourselves with the same problem. The problem is one of liability. Insurance, as the word indicates, is liability insurance.

Therefore, what must be changed and has not changed to this date in terms of railway transportation, are liability rules. Railway transportation is the last major system that has not been updated when it comes to compensation rules. This has now been done in air transportation and of course, in road transportation—which generally comes under provincial jurisdiction—as well as marine transportation. Railway transportation is the only area in which this has not yet been done. It took a disaster of the magnitude of Lac-Mégantic to awaken people's minds to this issue.

I prepared a page and a half summary for you which I translated myself. I take responsibility for any errors it contains. The proposals in the summary could be implemented fairly easily.

There are all kinds of possible solutions. We could introduce, as they have in some Australian states, an automatic compensation system for railway accident victims. This would require changing certain structures. I could discuss this further with you if you wish, but I would like to be more pragmatic and as efficient as possible. Under the current structure, it is possible to improve the compensation system for victims of railway accidents fairly easily by using rules that have been in place since 2003 in air transportation.

I say this would be fairly easy to implement, since the Canadian Transportation Agency, which is responsible for railway transportation, also supervises air transportation. The same organization would therefore be responsible for supervising these new compensation rules, which it already knows quite well.

How would this work? Essentially, in air transportation, we had the Montreal Convention. It was signed in 1999 and implemented in 2003. Over 100 countries signed the convention, including the United States and Canada, obviously. That convention stipulates a two-stage liability regime for the carrier. As you will see, it is easy to draw parallels with a railway carrier.

First of all, because this is an international convention, we do not speak of dollars, but rather Special Drawing Rights, or SDR. In the Montreal Convention, there is a first level of compensation set at 100,000 SDR, which is equivalent to $175,000 Canadian today. Obviously, this varies from country to country.

In this first level of compensation, the carrier's liability is automatic. The only way the air carrier can avoid having to pay—or rather having its insurer pay—is to prove that the victim was at fault. If we transpose this to the railway transportation context, we could point to the example of trespassing on railway tracks. In such a case, the carrier would have the right to invoke the trespasser's faulty behaviour and avoid having to compensate anyone following injury or death.

That first level provides quasi-automatic compensation, unless there is evidence that the victim was at fault.

Beyond that first level, the carrier may still be liable, but has more means at its disposal for exoneration. I am talking about what currently happens in the case of air carriers. The carrier may invoke the victim's faulty behaviour and its own lack of faulty behaviour. It may claim to have taken all reasonable measures to avoid the accident or claim that the accident was caused by a third party.

We therefore see that it is still presumably at fault, but not liable. Compensation may still be granted without a ceiling since the Montreal Convention abolished previous ceilings for compensation in the case of airline accidents. Compensation remains possible, but the carrier has more means at its disposal to exonerate itself.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is easily transferable to the railway sector. All that would be necessary would be separating, on one hand, personal injury, cases of bodily harm and fatalities and, on the other hand, property damage. The current problem is that the system deals with personal injury and property damage under the same liability insurance coverage.

This is my deeply held opinion. It seems to me that the motto “people before property” should be applied to our way of viewing compensation issues for victims of accidents. It is all very well to pay for environmental damages and to rebuild destroyed property, but the priority should be first and foremost to compensate people. That is why we must set up a liability insurance regime for railway carriers based on bodily harm to ensure it does not go beyond the limit, so that victims do not end up with nothing. The goal is also drawing attention, above all else, to the victims.

With respect to the terrible accident in Lac-Mégantic, let us imagine the money is found and those responsible identified and that in 15 years, for example, the whole thing is finally settled and victims are compensated. Unfortunately, it would be too late because orphans will have grown up and people will have passed on or moved on to something else. People need the money now, immediately.

You all know the English proverb which goes as follows:

Justice delayed is justice denied.

It applies perfectly to accidents involving bodily harm and fatalities. We must change the system and ensure that attention is given to people first and, afterwards, to property. If we do that, we will realize that not only is it feasible, but it is probably also what costs the least money.

It is terrible to say, but in the case of a disaster like the one in Lac-Mégantic, the worst damage was done to the environment and will probably cost well over half a billion dollars. Then, there is the damage to buildings and vehicles that were located in Lac-Mégantic's downtown core. The last item is compensation for the families of the 47 deceased victims.

As you know, I am a specialist on bodily harm and have made some quick calculations. Even though I am not familiar with the specific circumstances of the 47 victims, I guarantee you that if, tomorrow morning, full reparation was paid out, as happens before the regular courts, and the families of the 47 victims were compensated, it would all add up to less than $25 million. It would probably be less than $15 million. That is a drop in the ocean of costs following an accident like the one in Lac-Mégantic.

I would like to emphasize the economic feasibility of changing such a system. It could be done very quickly. The proof is that with a similar system, things have been working very well for the last 10 years in air transportation. Insurance premiums are predictable, fixed and accepted by insurance companies. Unfortunately, as they say, human life does not have a price, but it does have a cost which in legal terms is limited.

Thank you.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you very much, Mr. Gardner.

We'll now move to Mr. Sullivan, for seven minutes.