Evidence of meeting #19 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was railway.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Wendy Tadros  Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Kathy Fox  Board Member, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Kirby Jang  Director, Investigations Rail/Pipeline, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Jean Laporte  Chief Operating Officer, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
David Jeanes  President, Transport Action Canada
Daniel Gardner  Professor, Law Faculty, Université Laval, As an Individual

10:35 a.m.

Daniel Gardner

In answer to your first question about a moral obligation, I will simply remind you of what happened in Canada approximately 20 years ago with the tainted blood scandal. In that specific case, civil liability on the part of the Department of Health was never established in the federal government court.

However, at the same time, there was a collective realization after political pressure that it was unacceptable that the victims of contaminated blood be left to deal with complex legal procedures that would never reach their conclusion because the victims would die before that happened. In the end, moral obligation and national solidarity dictated the implementation of a compensation regime that, without necessarily fully compensating victims because of the thresholds set out in legislation, provided for at least faster payments of reasonable compensation.

I feel, without wanting to imply federal responsibility in this catastrophe, that the Lac-Mégantic tragedy was a wake-up call for everyone. We realized just how much railway transportation had evolved and how necessary it was that insurance limits, and monitoring and other measures, be updated. This tragedy happened and it led to 47 deaths.

As I already stated, compensation costs would not be particularly high for government if, on the grounds of national solidarity, it provided partial, not full compensation for the victims, as civil courts do. The government could ensure that these individuals not have to wait 15 years before they receive any compensation. That is my answer to your first question.

The second question is an interesting one because the Transportation Agency was the last to be added to the list of respondents in the class action suit in Quebec brought by representatives of the victims. Is the Transportation Agency legally liable for what happened?

Obviously one cannot accuse the Transportation Agency on the grounds that there were insufficient regulations. That is a political issue and, fortunately, judges do not get involved in political issues, in other words, which regulations should be adopted.

Did the agency improperly enforce current regulations? That was the argument in the amendment put forward regarding the CTA's liability. I see absolutely no evidence on one side or the other that would indicate to me that the CTA wilfully turned a blind eye to how the regulations were enforced, that they were complacent and that that was the cause of the derailment in question.

We can certainly agree that the legislation was insufficient with respect to the current liability insurance coverage regulations that provide for sufficient coverage, when we know that some of these companies were insured for less than $100 million and even considerably less than $50 million. Now that we know the potential consequences of these accidents given how dangerous these products are, obviously the law is inadequate. The problem is that this still does not deal with the civil liability of the state.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you. I'm sorry to cut you off, but we're getting to the end, and I think we got the answer.

Mr. Komarnicki, you have the last three minutes.

April 1st, 2014 / 10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

With respect to the compensation issue, I gather you were saying that justice delayed is justice denied. I suspect that you're suggesting a more expedited process. What are you suggesting as a tribunal or a process? It has to be quasi-judicial or a court-like setting, because you're dealing with issues of fact and law and so on. What are you proposing that would expedite the system, as opposed to a regular court system?

10:40 a.m.

Daniel Gardner

Consider the case of a two-tiered regime. As I said, unless it's the victim's fault, the carrier is automatically liable. The current Carriage by Air Act allows for compensation if there is an air accident. That could simply be made mandatory for rail transportation. Some compensation would have to be provided to the victim very quickly, in the months following the accident, up to a first level. That is what I proposed in the summary that I gave you. In cases of derailments and collisions, because there would be automatic liability, an amount would be immediately provided to the victim and following that, there could be a trial to determine any further amounts.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

You do interject another issue, and that is whether or not the damage was contributed to or caused by the negligence of the victim. Once you start determining that, and let's say it was mostly the victim, do you not find that you have to go through some kind of process before there's a payment out? There obviously wouldn't be any recourse for the funds afterward. Once you get into the process, it becomes a question of finding out what the facts were, what the responsibilities were, and so on.

Is it not, then, realistic to expect a payout if you have to determine that additional issue?

10:45 a.m.

Daniel Gardner

Let's apply what is currently done for air transportation to rail transportation. If a plane were to crash at take-off or landing, the carrier would definitely not go before the courts to argue against the victim. Obviously the passengers would not be at fault. The same would apply in cases of train collisions or derailments.

I gave you a hypothetical intrusion example, someone putting themselves on a train track. In that case there would be a trial in order to determine whether or not the victim was responsible. In the case of the Lac-Mégantic disaster, the carrier absolutely cannot argue that the victims were at fault. Therefore, there should be no question of deadlines for challenging payment of the first portion of compensation.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you very much, Mr. Gardner and Mr. Jeanes. We never have enough time, but our allotted time is up for this meeting. Thank you very much for being part of our study on rail safety.

The meeting is adjourned.