Bill C-27

Digital Charter Implementation Act, 2022

An Act to enact the Consumer Privacy Protection Act, the Personal Information and Data Protection Tribunal Act and the Artificial Intelligence and Data Act and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts

Part 1 enacts the Consumer Privacy Protection Act to govern the protection of personal information of individuals while taking into account the need of organizations to collect, use or disclose personal information in the course of commercial activities. In consequence, it repeals Part 1 of the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act and changes the short title of that Act to the Electronic Documents Act . It also makes consequential and related amendments to other Acts.
Part 2 enacts the Personal Information and Data Protection Tribunal Act , which establishes an administrative tribunal to hear appeals of certain decisions made by the Privacy Commissioner under the Consumer Privacy Protection Act and to impose penalties for the contravention of certain provisions of that Act. It also makes a related amendment to the Administrative Tribunals Support Service of Canada Act .
Part 3 enacts the Artificial Intelligence and Data Act to regulate international and interprovincial trade and commerce in artificial intelligence systems by requiring that certain persons adopt measures to mitigate risks of harm and biased output related to high-impact artificial intelligence systems. That Act provides for public reporting and authorizes the Minister to order the production of records related to artificial intelligence systems. That Act also establishes prohibitions related to the possession or use of illegally obtained personal information for the purpose of designing, developing, using or making available for use an artificial intelligence system and to the making available for use of an artificial intelligence system if its use causes serious harm to individuals.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I'll say that Brendan has tried to bigfoot me on that.

Brendan, it's good to see you, sir.

Dear colleagues, I have the honour to present Bill C‑27 to your committee today. I want to stress the importance and urgency of this bill. Let us recall that our laws were last updated more than 20 years ago. The last time we did the necessary work for Canadians was more than 20 years ago, before Facebook, Twitter and iPhones even existed. So you can imagine how important it is to act quickly and decisively.

In my view, we cannot miss out on the opportunity to modernize privacy laws for Canadians, who are waiting for concrete action. I think the bill meets their expectations.

Moreover, technology is evolving quickly, as you know. Since we last met, Canadians have witnessed the advent of various new technologies, such as ChatGPT. We are all grappling with the tremendous power of artificial intelligence, which offers great possibilities, as well as risks, to be honest.

Bill C-27 is Canada's much-needed response to these pressing challenges. It will build a stronger framework for privacy protection, and it will introduce a new framework for the regulation of artificial intelligence, putting into practice the principles of Canada's digital charter.

Bill C‑27 will introduce key reforms to better align our privacy bill with international best practices, including the European Union's general data protection regulation. A large part of that is expanding the powers of the office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada so it can make orders, require businesses to provide information and recommend some of the strongest sanctions in G7 countries.

It is also urgent to provide guardrails around artificial intelligence technology. AI is advancing at a rapid pace and is quickly being adopted across Canada's economy.

I'm happy to say that tomorrow there's a huge summit that I'll be attending in Montreal. It's the All In summit with Yoshua Bengio. Thousands of people are coming from around the world to listen to Canada and to see what we can do together.

Bill C-27 proposes robust guardrails for the responsible development, deployment and use of AI systems. Part 3 of the bill, the AI and data act, is designed to protect Canadians from the risks associated with AI, to encourage trustworthy innovation and to solidify Canada's place as a global leader in responsible AI.

Canada is one of the first jurisdictions in the world to propose a legal framework for AI. Passing AIDA will make Canada's AI synonymous with safe AI around the world. I can tell you that our Japanese, European Union and American colleagues have all been in touch. They see Canada as taking a leadership role in these regards.

First of all, let me tell you what the future artificial intelligence and data act will not do: it will not duplicate what existing legislation already effectively covers. Nor will it regulate the many creative and useful applications of artificial intelligence that do nor require government intervention, such as checking grammar or deciding what music or movie we might enjoy.

Certain artificial intelligence systems, such as those that determine whether a person gets a loan or a job they want, can nonetheless have real consequences for Canadians families and consumers. In my view, what we are proposing will allow for responsible innovation, along with a certain number of rules to protect Canadians.

There are also new AI technologies, like ChatGPT. I don't need to tell you—you've all seen it in recent months and even yesterday—that they're new innovations and we don't really know everything they're capable of. You don't need to take it from me, but I would advise you to read the letter that was signed by Yoshua Bengio, and hundreds of people from around the world, warning us that we need to take action.

We know that they can do a lot of useful work for us, but they can also be used to spread fake images or videos on a scale that we have never seen before. Our laws are not currently set up to deal with these kinds of risks, but AIDA will fill this gap.

I know all parties care about these issues, and I know this committee can play a vital role in protecting Canadians. Let's ensure that the technology is fair for all Canadians and that we have trust again.

In short, our bill has solid foundations. I should note, however, that I have also listened to suggestions to improve it, as we must always do.

My office and department have had more than 300 meetings with academics, businesses and members of civil society regarding his bill. We have also heard important contributions from the committee and our fellow parliamentarians. I also spoke directly with the Privacy Commissioner and listened to his recommendations. Not only did we consult and listen to him, we also followed through with amendments based on his requests. I think my colleagues will be pleased to see the amendments we are proposing.

Throughout the last 18 months, we have also taken action to advance the foundation for privacy in Canada, including by increasing the funding of the Privacy Commissioner by nearly $20 million. We have also prepared a companion document for the AI and data act to shed more light on the responsible AI framework.

Now, I want to put on the table specifically what our government will propose to improve the bill. These are the amendments that we are proposing to the bill, and I would encourage my colleagues to pay attention, particularly to that part of what I will be saying.

First, we will propose an amendment to recognize a fundamental right to privacy for Canadians. I think this is a big win for Canada. This is a major step forward, and I give credit to my colleagues, to this committee—you said that to me before—and to stakeholders across the country for enabling us to move forward on this.

The bill already recognizes important new privacy rights, including the requirement for clear language from companies to improve consent, and the right to data mobility and the right to request that data be deleted.

Specifically, we want to assure you that Canadians can be confident that their right to privacy will be respected. So I encourage all my colleagues to vote for the amendment. Let us all guarantee Canadians' fundamental right to privacy.

I think this is a major step forward, and I think Canada will be seen as a world leader in doing it.

Next, you have heard me talk about children. I think we need to take care of our children, especially online. I think there is broad consensus on this across the country.

I have two young stepdaughters and this is important to me, as it is to all parents in Canada. That is why our government will put forward amendments to recognize and strengthen the protection of children's right to privacy. In my opinion, we still have to do more to protect them online, and that is certainly what we intend to do.

Lastly, I want to highlight that, while the bill significantly strengthens the Privacy Commissioner's ability to issue orders for compliance as well as to recommend some of the highest penalties in the world, I understand that it's important to enable him to pursue justice more quickly. That's why we will propose amendments to give the commissioner more flexibility to reach compliance agreements with companies that are non-compliant with privacy law, allowing for quick resolution of matters without implicating the tribunal or the courts. That's also something I've heard from colleagues around this table.

Next, we will work together on the first artificial intelligence bill put forward in Canada. When I introduced the bill in June 2022, we deliberately designed a flexible bill, knowing that artificial intelligence is evolving very quickly. It must absolutely provide the basis for flexible regulations in the future that will enable businesses to continue to innovate and, obviously, to protect Canadians.

Our government intends to put forward key amendments to provide more structure, detail and clarity in the part pertaining to artificial intelligence, while still retaining flexibility. This is what has made it possible for the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act, which is still in force in Canada, to evolve over the decades. Flexibility is key. This is the Canadian model that has provided for success thus far. The good news is that our bill has been designed to be flexible so that new artificial intelligence categories can be added through amendments.

First, colleagues, let me say that I've heard you. Let me remind you that our bill focuses on only high-impact AI systems. We will propose an amendment to define classes of systems that would typically be considered high impact—for example, AI systems that make important decisions about loans or employment.

Second, we will introduce specific and distinct obligations for general-purpose AI systems like ChatGPT. I think it's very timely that we do that. These are systems that, for example, are available for public use, can interpret a wide variety of commands, and generate text, picture and audio.

Third, I've heard that a clearer differentiation of the AI value chain—that is, a person who develops AI systems versus one who manages and deploys AI systems in their business—is necessary to ensure that companies have a clear set of obligations.

Fourth, we will strengthen and clarify the role of the proposed AI and data commissioner, including by enabling them to share information and co-operate with other regulators—for example, the Privacy Commissioner or the competition commissioner.

The fifth one we'll be proposing in terms of amendments that I wish to highlight is to align with the EU AI Act as well as other advanced economies of the OECD by making targeted amendments to key definitions and clarifying requirements. This change will specifically ensure that Canadian AI companies are interoperable with other jurisdictions and that our companies have access to international markets. It is fundamental to the world we live in to be able to be interoperable.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair, I hope these significant proposed amendments are as compelling for you as they are for me. We really put our best foot forward to get the support of the committee to provide a piece of legislation that Canadians can be proud of.

I am optimistic about Canada's potential in the global digital economy. I am keen to work with you to enact responsible privacy and artificial intelligence legislation, because I think Canada can serve as an example to the world. People around the world are watching Canada to see the kind of framework we will adopt to help our businesses innovate responsibly, while protecting the interests of Canadians.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

This meeting is called to order.

Welcome to meeting No. 86 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry and Technology.

Today's meeting is taking place in hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, April 24, 2023, the committee is commencing consideration of Bill C‑27, An Act to enact the Consumer Privacy Protection Act, the Personal Information and Data Protection Tribunal Act and the Artificial Intelligence and Data Act and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses today. With us are the Hon. François‑Philippe Champagne, Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry, accompanied by a regular at this committee, Mark Schaan, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, and Samir Chhabra, Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch.

I think I speak for all committee members in saying that we have been eagerly awaiting this study and are very keen to begin it.

Without further delay, I invite you to proceed with your opening remarks, Mr. Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

That's fine. Then we can discuss it at the subcommittee. In any case, I think we'll be busy studying Bill C‑27 for the next two months.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

This is a suggestion for the committee. I think we're all assuming that we start Bill C-27 on Tuesday. We obviously haven't gone through or been able to get witnesses yet—I don't believe—for Thursday, so perhaps Thursday might be an opportunity for the PBO or the Privacy Commissioner.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'm wondering when the Parliamentary Budget Officer could come and testify. If the study of Bill C‑27 leads us to have several meetings—the list of witnesses is quite long—would it be responsible to invite the Parliamentary Budget Officer much later in the fall or even in the winter? Would that be the responsible thing to do under the circumstances? Since it's just one meeting, we can probably find an opportunity to meet with him sooner.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Before we move to a vote, this is basically to inform the committee of what we want to study as a committee and what we decide we want to pursue, knowing full well that Bill C-27 takes precedence. That's what we're going to be dealing with for the next few weeks.

Do we need to vote on the first motion? I sense that there's consensus on the motion proposed by Mr. Perkins.

Mr. Lemire, you look skeptical.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Just to provide a bit of context on the idea for Thursday's meeting, I'm hopeful that we'll get Bill C-34 done, and we can free our friends who've been with us over many meetings. Thursday would be a steering committee meeting so that we can hash out the plan, in particular with regard to Bill C-27 and how we intend to approach it, and also, perhaps, if we have time, to vote on some of the motions that have been presented and how we intend to deal with them.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was wondering whether we're going to have a subcommittee meeting to look at what legislation is going to come forth and so forth. Some of these motions are excellent. Actually, they're all really good motions, and in different ways. I have amendments to them, but at any rate, I'm just wondering whether we're going to have our own planning meeting, because it will be interesting to find out out where Bill C-27 stands as we're working through this.

Obviously, the one by Mr. Perkins with regard to the PBO officer is just one meeting, so that's easy to deal with and dispense with, but the other suggestions are more comprehensive and would require planning.

I'll just throw that out there. Maybe you can share with us how you would like to deal with this or if we are going to go one-off at them at the end of the meeting if there's time, or maybe on Thursday, if we can get through Bill C-34 today or next week.

Canada Business Corporations Act

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to talk about the beaches of Bay of Quinte. Sandbanks is the largest freshwater sandbar in all the world. We welcome well over a million visitors a year, and everyone is welcome. Some of us wish we were there today.

The bill deserves the attention that we are trying to give it, as rushed as it is. We need to spend time on a lot of different bills right now. We are dealing with Bill C-34 and are waiting for Bill C-27. The reality is that there is a lot of important legislation that we need to get through, and we need to spend the ample amount of time that these bills deserve to have spent on them. As I have mentioned, we certainly would have liked to see a few more amendments studied. We wanted to see the future of money laundering studied and not just to catch up to today.

There is a lot of great work to happen ahead, and as soon as we are done with the beaches and it gets a little colder, we will see everyone back here in Parliament so we can keep working on behalf of Canadians.

Instruction to the Standing Committee on Industry and Technology

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is amazing. I had just finished saying “Bill C-27”, and the member then stood up. Bill C-27 is what the motion is actually all about. The Conservative Party has actually moved a motion to try to get the government to divide Bill C-27 into more bills so Conservatives would have more opportunity to cause more filibustering in order to deprive Canadians of good, sound legislation. That is what the Conservative Party is doing.

What is Bill C-27? It would be an actual modernization. Believe it or not, and I say this for the Conservative colleagues across the way, technology has changed over the last 20 years. A lot of things have happened. Do members know the last time we actually had a modernization of this legislation? We are talking about over two decades ago, when iPhones and Facebook did not exist. One would think that the Conservatives would have, and be able to comprehend, the need to change the legislation. However, there has been no signal whatsoever coming from the opposition benches to recognize the value of modernizing this legislation.

The Conservatives should be concerned about it. Do they know the amount of data that is collected in both government agencies and private companies? People must understand that, through technological change, we have seen the development of huge data banks. Canadians are concerned about privacy. They want to make sure that the information being collected is, in fact, protected. A flash disk can have literally millions of entries, and that can be very damaging to the population. Twenty years ago, we did not have flash disks. We might have had the five-inch round disks; I can remember having those about 20 years ago. I will use Tim Hortons as an example, and I could easily use the example of McDonald's too. We can look at those restaurants' apps. People should open up and find out how many apps are out there. When we download these apps, whether they are for a restaurant or any other sort of service like a retail store, and we start using them, we are providing information. People should take a look at the airline industry, hotels and the many different industries out there that are actually collecting the private information of Canadians.

In the Government of Canada, we recognize that we have a responsibility to look at what is impacting Canadians today, and to bring forward not only budgetary measures, as we have done to protect the backs of Canadians, but also legislative measures. That is what Bill C-27 would do in this particular area; it would ensure that the privacy of Canadians would ultimately be respected and that these huge data banks that are being created would not be abused or exploited at the expense of Canadians.

We have consulted extensively. Through private, government and non-profit organizations, the department has done its job in terms of bringing forward legislation that would, in fact, modernize the industry. Most important from my perspective is that it would protect the interests and the privacy of Canadians.

I want to emphasize, at the end of the day, the amount of change that we have witnessed in 20 years, as I said somewhat lightly a few minutes ago. We should understand that when I was first elected to the Manitoba legislature, the Internet was something which people dialed into. The first thing we heard was the “ching-ching-ching-ching” and then the dial tone coming. Then we had to double-click and we were into the Internet, and, boy, was it slow compared to what happens today.

There were data banks at that time, and there was information being collected. That is why I would suggest that legislation of this nature is indeed warranted and needed. That is why we have standing committees. Earlier today, in the Conservatives' filibuster, they made a mockery of a standing committee and its efforts by moving an amendment even though the report was unanimously supported. They made a mockery of that.

I will suggest to the members who participate in standing committees of Parliament that they can play a very important role in giving strength to legislation and to improving legislation. We have a minister who is following the debate, listening to what members have to say, and looking for ways we can improve and strengthen the legislation in the name of protecting Canadians, the data banks and our privacy rights.

We want to see stability in the industry. Not only do consumers benefit from that stability, but businesses do as well. If we put more stability into place, also factoring in things like AI, it puts Canada in a better position to be able to continue to grow and expand our economy. This is an important aspect of that.

We have a Prime Minister and a government that have consistently said we want an economy that works for all Canadians from coast to coast to coast, urban or rural. The impact of the Internet on rural communities has been significant in terms of economics, not to mention in many other ways. I will focus on the issue of economics.

Retail stores can now be found within our computer, and the actual locations are often in rural communities. It can be a driving force for growth in rural communities. That is why it is important we get it right, that we have the confidence of consumers and Canadians in the information that is being gathered. We have to make sure that information is protected, whether it is names, financial information, health-related information and so much more.

The legislation is good. It is sound. We would like to be able to encourage the Conservatives to see its value. By supporting the legislation, they are supporting Canadians. This legislation is a reflection of what Canadians want to see put into law.

On that point, I know there is legislation the Conservatives say they support. Let us see if we can stop the filibustering here in the chamber so we can pass additional legislation so Canadians will be even better served by the House of Commons.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I always welcome the opportunity to point out the hypocrisy of the Conservatives. Sometimes they just make it too easy.

When I first walked in this morning, honest to God, I really thought we were going to be passing historic legislation. I really thought we were going to be talking about Bill C-22. After all, if anyone went on the Internet and looked at what is happening in Ottawa, what would be debated in the House of Commons, the first thing in government business was Bill C-22.

I am sorry, Bill C-22 is another national program, that is the disability program. We do so much good stuff, there so much out there. We are supposed to be talking about Bill C-35, and it did not take a Conservative to point that out. They kind of get lost in the numbers.

At the end of the day, we were supposed to be talking about Bill C-35 today. It is a national child care plan, from coast to coast to coast, and we are enshrining it into law. We had 20 minutes to go, and then it would go into law.

However, no, the Conservatives had a different agenda. They have a partisan agenda. They have an agenda that says “cause frustration, do not allow legislation to pass.” The previous speaker stood up and said that we needed to have more legislation, referring to Bill C-27. He wants to multiply Bill C-27 into three bills. He wants us to introduce three more pieces of legislation so that the Conservatives have more to filibuster.

The member is criticizing the government, saying that it has been months since we last called this legislation. A lot of issues are happening on the floor of the House of Commons, even with the frustrations caused by the Conservatives, and they cause a lot of frustration. I will give them that much. They know how to play a destructive force. Never before have I seen an opposition, and I was in opposition for 20 years, so focused on playing a destructive force with respect to legislation.

Earlier today, I reminded the opposition that it was a minority government, and I acknowledge that. We accept the fact that we were elected as a minority government, and we thank Canadians for recognizing us and allowing us to continue in government. We take that very seriously. I kind of wish the Conservative Party would recognize that as well.

Do they not realize there is a sense of “responsibility” for opposition members as well. Providing endless filibusters and trying to prevent every piece of legislation from passing is the goal of the Conservative. Just last week, and I referenced it this morning, the Conservative leader made a strong statement, and it made the news. It was on Newswatch in fact, not to mention other news agencies. The Leader of the Conservative Party said that he was going to speak and speak and speak, and he might have said “speak” a few more times, to filibuster our budget implementation bill. Let us think about all the things in that the budget implementation bill, and there is not enough time to elaborate on that. That was his intention. He was going to speak until we changed it, and four hours later it passed.

We have these mechanisms to ensure that at least, even with the destructive force of the Conservative Party, we can still get things done for Canadians.

Let us fast forward things here. The Conservatives did not want to debate the child care bill this morning. Instead, they wanted to talk about an issue that now brings us to Bill C-27—

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his arguments to divide the bill. I particularly dislike Bill C-27 for the artificial intelligence act that is included in it. It essentially would exempt the government from any kind of serious harms and any designated provincial government, while saying to business and innovation that it would hang this threat of a criminal offence over their heads, but not telling them what this means. It is going to push our industry and innovation down to the United States, where there is no legislation.

Does he believe this bill needs to have a full vetting, because generative artificial intelligence can be something that we can innovate in Canada? It is powerful. I would not say dangerous, but this kind of bill would push that activity to areas that are not regulated.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak to Motion No. 426, which deals with Bill C-27. For those watching who do not know Bill C-27, it is the government's piece of legislation to update our privacy laws and introduce a new act on artificial intelligence.

As to the purpose of this motion, even though the bill went through second reading and is now awaiting study at the industry committee, we are asking that the bill be split in three, because it really is three separate bills. The first bill, as my colleague from Bay of Quinte just mentioned, is the part of the legislation that deals with updating the Privacy Act, including all of the privacy terms for protecting an individual's privacy and protecting the rights of others to use someone's privacy, that is, how they can or cannot use it. The second piece of the legislation would create a new agency called the privacy tribunal. It is really a separate piece of legislation. In fact, it is classified as a separate piece of legislation, an act within this act. Then the third piece is the artificial intelligence and data act.

It really is three pieces of legislation in one bill, and that is why we have moved this motion asking that the bill be split in three. It is a massive 120-page piece of legislative change impacting every person and every business in this country. It deserves to be studied as three separate pieces, and members of the House of Commons deserve to vote separately on those three separate pieces of information.

I will start with the first piece, which is the privacy piece. We talked at second reading about the difference between our views on the purpose of this bill, this act, and the government's views. The government made the claim that this bill was making greater steps toward protecting the personal information of the individual, yet that is not what the bill does.

Clause 5 is the purpose section, the most important section of any bill that sets out what the legal structure or purpose of legislation is. It says that it tries to balance the protection of personal privacy with the rights of businesses to use people's data. It puts business interests on a par with individual privacy interests. As my colleague from Bay of Quinte just said and as I said in my second reading speech, that is a fundamental flaw of this bill. The Privacy Commissioner has already spoken out about it.

There has been discussion about whether privacy is a fundamental human right. There is language on this in the preamble, but the preamble of the bill has virtually no legal impact. It says that privacy is among the fundamental rights people have, but it is not in the purpose section. We have been seeking and will be seeking a broad discussion at committee on that issue and the legal implication of it. The purpose section of the bill, clause 5, should say that the protection of personal privacy is a fundamental right. It is not balanced between business needs and individual needs but is a fundamental right.

That is important not only for the reasons that I just outlined, but because further down, clause 18 of the privacy part of the bill creates a concept called “legitimate interest” for a business. Clause 17, just prior to that, lays out that there has to be the express consent of an individual for a business to use privacy data, but clause 18 goes on to say that there is a legitimate interest for the business to not care about an individual's express consent. In fact, it lets a company say that if something is in its legitimate interest as a company, even if it causes individuals harm, it is okay for it to use their data for something that they did not give permission for. It says that right in the legislation.

This is a fundamental flaw of a bill that pretends to be protecting people's fundamental privacy rights. It in fact protects big corporate data and the right of big corporations to use our data however they wish. It does give additional power, which is needed, to the Privacy Commissioner in that, but the second part of the bill then takes it back with the creation of the privacy tribunal.

Maybe the best explanations of the privacy tribunal is to compare it to and understand the way the Competition Act works. There are two aspects to how we decide competition issues and appeals. One is the Competition Bureau that looks at merges and acquisitions, and it says whether they are anti-competitive or not and will rule on that merger. Then there is a Competition Tribunal, like the privacy tribunal as proposed in the bill, which is the legal framework where the law gets done and the battle gets fought between the company that thinks it should do the merger and the Competition Bureau that thinks it should not.

A classic example recently was the Rogers-Shaw takeover. Quite a bit of time was spent both through the Competition Bureau process and the Competition Tribunal process, which ruled whether that sale could happen and then whether an aspect of that sale, being the sale of Freedom Mobile to Vidéotron, could be done.

The government wants to create that kind of process in the privacy law now. It is a separate act that creates this bureaucracy and this appeal mechanism, where six individuals will decide, as a privacy tribunal, whether a company has breached a person's privacy rights. However, out of the six individuals, only three of them need to any familiarity with privacy law. The others do not need any familiarity with privacy law, no familiarity with business, no familiarity with human rights, nothing. They do not need any other qualifications other than, perhaps in this case, they are a Liberal and are appointed to this board.

I have discussed this with a number of law firms since the bill was tabled a year ago. These law firms have very different views about whether this speeds up or slows down the process of dealing with individual privacy law issues. We need to have a separate study within the committee on that aspect. In fact, I have been talking to the chair of the committee about that structure, trying to get the hearings to be set up in a way that looks at these three pieces separately.

The third piece, which my colleague for Bay of Quinte spoke eloquently about, is on artificial intelligence.

Remember, the first two parts of the bill are essentially a modest rewrite of a bill from the last Parliament, Bill C-11, when the government tried to amend these acts and then complained that the bill did not pass, because it called an early election. The Liberals could not figure out why it did not pass. However, the Liberals reintroduced the bill, but then they bolted on this other thing, which has absolutely nothing to do with the first two parts.

The third part is called the “artificial intelligence act”, but it has nothing to do with the privacy of individuals and it has nothing to do with the appeal of a person's privacy. It is all about how to regulate this new industry, and it gets it wrong. The government is basically saying that its does not know what artificial intelligence is, which is not surprising for the Liberals, but it is going to regulate it. It is going to define it in regulation, and the minister is going to be in charge of defining it. The minister is going to be in charge of setting the rules on whether the law has been breached. The minister is also going to be in charge of fining someone who has breached the law of this thing the government cannot define. It is a total usurping of Parliament. The Liberals are saying that they do not know what it is, but we should trust them, that they will never have to come back to Parliament to deal with this again.

We are asking the House to split the bill into three, because it really is three separate pieces of legislation. The government would have more success in its legislative agenda if it actually brought in these pieces properly, individually, rather than a mini-omnibus bill of different types of issues. Then they could be properly studied, properly amended, properly consulted on and properly dealt with by Parliament. The government is choosing not to do that, which is why it is having such poor legislative success in all of its efforts to date.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, it is an interesting tactic. The Conservatives still do not want to talk about child care. I guess they have an objection to that. I think we could pass this historic legislation in about 25 minutes, but they are having an allergic reaction to yet another national program. It is somewhat unfortunate.

The member wants to talk about AI and splitting a bill that is already in committee. I think the Speaker at one point made a ruling on it, but the Conservatives want to continue to kill time. I understand and appreciate that. This is how they feel they are being a good opposition party, though I might challenge that a bit.

Does the member not recognize the legislation also talks about the protection of data? Data is so critically important. I am wondering to what degree the Conservative Party really recognizes that with technological changes, we need to modernize legislation.

Bill C-27 deals with things like AI and other very important aspects of modernization through technology and data banks. We need to deal with that. When does the member believe the Conservatives will agree to see that sort of legislation pass? Is he and the Conservative regime thinking it should be happening sometime this year possibly, or will they want to continue to filibuster this into the months and years ahead? When would they like to see this type of legislation pass?

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

moved:

That it be an instruction to the Standing Committee on Industry and Technology that, during its consideration of Bill C-27, An Act to enact the Consumer Privacy Protection Act, the Personal Information and Data Protection Tribunal Act and the Artificial Intelligence and Data Act and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts, the committee be granted the power to divide the bill into three pieces of legislation:

(a) Bill C-27A, An Act to enact the Consumer Privacy Protection Act, containing Part 1 and the schedule to section 2;

(b) Bill C-27B, An Act to enact the Personal Information and Data Protection Tribunal Act, containing Part 2; and

(c) Bill C-27C, An Act to enact the Artificial Intelligence and Data Act, containing Part 3.

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to be here today to speak on this motion. I will be splitting my time today with the member for South Shore—St. Margarets.

Bill C-27 is a very important bill. We have talked about privacy legislation now for about eight or nine months. Our whole premise was that privacy always should be a fundamental right of Canadians. We talked about the limitations of this bill when the government announced it. That was missing from the bill. The bill was in three parts. The first part spoke to replacing the “PIP” in “PIPEDA”; the second part was announcing and debating the use of a tribunal; and the third part was about AI. This motion asks to split this bill into three parts so the committee can look at and vote on each part individually.

If we talk about why that is needed at this point, it is very simple. The third part about AI part is the most flawed. When we look at the bill in its entirety and we have gone through debate, we certainly hope to have this bill go to the industry committee. The government delayed sending this to committee, but I am hoping it will be in committee in the early fall, and we want to debate, for the most part, the AI section.

I stand today to shed light on a topic that has captured the imagination of many, and yet poses significant risk to our society: the dangers of artificial intelligence, or AI. While AI has the potential to revolutionize our world, we must also be aware of the dangers it presents and take proactive steps to mitigate them. For decades, AI and the imaginary and real threats it brings has been a subject of fascination in popular culture.

I remember, as a child, watching a movie called WarGames. A teenager wanted to change his grades, he went into a computer to try to do that and the computer offered to play a game of nuclear annihilation. It ended up that the U.S.S.R., through this computer, was about to attack the U.S. NORAD thought it was happening, was ready to strike back and somehow the computer could not figure out what was right or wrong and the only way the student was able to figure it out was to play a game of tic-tac-toe that he found he could never win. At the end, after playing the nuclear game he could never win, he said he would play a nice game of chess because that is easier, someone wins, someone loses and it is safe. This was AI in 1984.

My favourite movie with AI was The Matrix. In The Matrix, humans were batteries in the world, who were taken over and owned by machines until Neo saved them and gave them freedom. Another movie that I remember as a kid was Terminator 2, and we know how that one ended. It was pretty good. We are not sure if it has even ended yet. I think there is another one coming. Arnold Schwarzenegger is still alive.

We find ourselves in a season of alarmism over artificial intelligence, with warnings from experts of the need to prioritize the mitigation of AI risks. One of the greatest concerns around AI is the potential loss of jobs as automation and intelligent machines rise. Has anyone ever heard of the Texas McDonald's that is run entirely without people? It is coming. They have figured out how to use robots and machines to eliminate staff positions.

Even though it is not AI, all of us go to the grocery store now and can check out on our own. When we shop, we see lots of different ways, whether it is Amazon or others, that companies are using AI for robotics. We have heard of dark industrial storage where robots operate in the dark, moving products from exit to entrance, and people are not needed. It is a big problem for job losses.

Another major risk of AI lies in the erosion of privacy and personal data security. As AI becomes more integrated in our lives, it gathers vast amounts of data about individuals, which can be used to manipulate behaviour, target individuals and our children with personalized advertisements, and infringe upon our civil liberties. The first part of Bill C-27 has to do with the third part, but is not the same.

We must establish strong regulations and ethical guidelines to protect our privacy rights and prevent the misuse of personal data. Transparency and accountability should be at the forefront of AI development, ensuring that individuals have control over their own information. Moreover, the rapid advancement of AI brings with it the potential for unintended consequences.

AI systems, while designed to learn and improve, can also develop biases. We saw in the ethics committee, with facial recognition technology, when we had experts come into the committee that, alarmingly, Black females were misidentified 34% of the time by computers. It was called “digital racism”. White males were misidentified only 1% of the time.

Again, this is technology that we have allowed, in some instances, to be used by the RCMP and to be used by the forces. All experts asked for a moratorium on that technology, much the same as we are seeing with AI, because without proper oversight and diverse representation in the development of AI logarithms and algorithms, we risk entrenching society biases within these systems. It is imperative that we prioritize diversity and inclusion in AI development to ensure fairness and to avoid exacerbating existing inequalities.

The security implications of AI cannot be overlooked either. As AI becomes more sophisticated, it could be weaponized or manipulated by malicious actors. Cyber-attacks exploiting AI vulnerabilities could lead to significant disruptions in critical systems, such as health care, transportation and defence. They say the greatest risk of war right now is not by sticks and stones, but by computers and joysticks and that AI could infiltrate our systems.

One thing I was reading about the other week is the risk of a solar storm that could knock out all the technology, but AI and cybersecurity could do the same. Can members imagine what our world would be like if we did not have Internet for a day, weeks or a month? We certainly saw that with the Rogers outage last summer, but we can imagine if it was malicious in intent.

Last, we must address the ethical dilemmas posed by AI. As AI systems become more autonomous, they raise complex questions about accountability and decision-making. We have heard about Tesla having automobiles that have gone off course, and the computer is making the life-or-death decision about where that car is going.

The other day I heard a report about vehicles in L.A. that are autonomous and running by Tesla or by taxi, and that fire trucks and ambulances could not get by the vehicles, because the vehicles were programmed to stop and put their four-way lights on, so these fire trucks could not get past them due to AI decisions. They had to smash the windshields in order to get the vehicles out of the way, and they lost precious minutes getting to the scene of a fire.

While AI holds immense potential to improve our lives, we must remain vigilant to the danger it presents. We cannot afford to turn a blind eye to the risks of job displacement, privacy breaches, bias, security threats or ethical concerns. It is our responsibility to shape the future of AI in a way that benefits all of humanity while mitigating its potential harms. We need to work together to foster a world where AI is harnessed for the greater good, ensuring that progress is made with compassion, fairness and responsible stewardship.

Let us shift for a moment to the positive aspects of AI, and AI actually does exist for good. We have AI working right now with health care diagnostics. Algorithms are being developed to analyze medical images, such as X-rays and MRls, to assist doctors in diagnosing diseases like cancer, enabling earlier detection and improved treatment outcomes.

We have disease prevention and prediction. AI models can analyze large datasets of patient information and genetic data to identify patterns and predict the likelihood of individuals getting certain diseases.

There is environmental conservation. Al-powered systems are being used to monitor and analyze environmental data. I have heard of farmers who are using computer systems to monitor the nitrogen in soil, so they can monitor how much water and how much fertilizer they need to put in the soil, which is saving our environment.

There is disaster response and management. AI is used to analyze social media posts and other data sources during natural disasters to provide real-time information, identify critical needs, and coordinate rescue and relief efforts.

For education and personalized learning, AI is changing the way people are learning right now. The greatest thing we have is ChatGPT, and ChatGPT has revolutionized research. Of course we are looking at the possibility of jobs being lost. It has even helped me with my speech today.

We have a lot of great things that are happening, and in the bill we certainly are going to be looking at how we change and monitor that. The bill should be split into three sections. We need to make sure we look at privacy as a fundamental human right for Bill C-27 as number one; the tribunal is number two; but AI is number three. We need to have as many witnesses as possible to make sure we get it right, and we need to work with our G7 partners to make sure we all look at AI and its benefits, its shortcomings and its benefits to society in Canada and the future.