Evidence of meeting #11 for Afghanistan in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was officials.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Heidi Hulan  Assistant Deputy Minister and Political Director, International Security and Political Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Cindy Termorshuizen  Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Peter MacDougall  Assistant Deputy Minister, Global Issues and Development, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Miriam Burke
Paul Thoppil  Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia Pacific, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Julie Sunday  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Consular, Security and Emergency Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

I'm sorry to interrupt, Minister.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

I can continue to answer.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

It's a big stop at seven minutes.

Now we'll proceed to Madam Damoff for six minutes. Please, go ahead.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, thank you so much for being here today. You touched on this briefly in your remarks, but I wondered if you could just expand a bit.

One of the things that has troubled me deeply, which Canadians are not talking about, is what's happening to women and girls in Afghanistan. I don't know that Canadians are even aware of what's happening to girls. Schools are being closed. Women can't travel without a male escort. Secondary schools were closed. I'm not sure if they've reopened or not, but the curriculum has been changed to put a focus on religion, rather than academics.

What is Canada doing to speak out about this, Minister? Will these actions of the Taliban make it more challenging not only for Canada, but for other countries to engage with them?

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

Thank you Pam. That's a really good question.

Obviously, one thing that Canada from can be proud of is the fact that for two decades, and with successive governments, we were able to help educate women and girls in Afghanistan. This was a priority. The backsliding of women's and girls' rights is extremely preoccupying. When I say “extremely preoccupying”, it's that we're indeed seeing that they don't have access to secondary-level school.

Pam, you also mentioned the question of free movement. They are extremely limited in their movements. They are also being restricted in terms of their dress and the type of clothing they can wear. We know that they cannot have access—I mentioned free movement—without a male escort. These are just examples.

It was part of the amnesty negotiation conditions at the time, whereby women's and girls' rights needed to be respected. Ethnic communities needed to be respected. Overall human rights needed to be respected, which included the fact that public protests could be respected. Now we're seeing people being arrested and detained. Also, it was clear in the amnesty negotiation that there would be no retaliation against the people who were part of the former regime, but we've seen that more than 500 have been killed since the beginning in August.

Clearly, the situation is Afghanistan is even worse now than it was in August. Obviously, one of the biggest tragedies is what is going on with women and girls, but the overall human rights issue is a problem.

Now, what are we doing? We are raising it directly. Every time David Sproule, our special envoy, meets with the Taliban along with other ambassadors and special envoys, they raise it. We've obviously raised it at the UN and with many multilateral organizations. I've raised it bilaterally with many other countries, particularly the EU.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Minister, can I ask about that? You've raised it numerous times. I know that, like myself, you're very passionate about this issue.

Could you raise it more here at home? I think if Canadians actually knew what was going on, they would be as outraged as we are. I think they're just not aware of how far things have gone backwards since August.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

I will do that, Pam. Thank you for asking the question.

I hope the journalists watching us right now will actually raise it as well.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

I agree. Thank you.

You mentioned David Sproule. I wonder if you could expand on his role and on what he is doing on the ground for Canada and with our partners.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

David is actually representing Canada, but he is based out of Doha. Many of the special representatives are based in Qatar right now because no country in the world has recognized the Taliban as a legitimate government.

Many of our like-minded partners are there. Along with countries such as Australia, Norway, the U.K., and even the U.S., our special envoys have been meeting in groups with the foreign minister from Afghanistan when he comes to Qatar. It is our way to engage without recognizing the legitimacy of the Taliban government. For us, recognizing the Taliban regime is a red line that we don't want to cross.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

I have four seconds left, so I'll just leave it there.

Thank you so much, Minister.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

Thank you, Madam Damoff.

We will move to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for six minutes.

Please, go ahead.

May 2nd, 2022 / 6:55 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you very much for joining us today and for giving us some of your precious time for this very important study. We are extremely appreciative.

You said earlier that the Taliban is a listed terrorist entity and that, for this reason, Canadian non-government organizations, or NGOs, were struggling to do their work on the ground in Afghanistan.

According to the United Nations, or UN, Security Council resolution 2615, humanitarian assistance and other activities for meeting the essential needs of people in Afghanistan are not a violation of the sanctions regime targeting the Taliban and intended to freeze their assets.

Is Canada implementing UN's resolution 2615 in the Canadian context?

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

There is definitely an issue with the way the Criminal Code is being interpreted, as that limits the humanitarian assistance Canada can provide in Afghanistan. Of course, everything was developed when the events of September 11 took place, when the reality was completely different.

We are now in a situation where any form of indirect assistance, including the payment of humanitarian organizations' taxes, for instance, would be a violation of the Criminal Code. So I am very interested in finding out what solutions the committee will come up with and what recommendations will be made.

7 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Why is Canada one of the only countries that has not quickly changed its approach when it knows what is happening, it is familiar with the Canadian Criminal Code and the situation of NGOs, and considering that those organizations have been asking for this for a long time?

I even moved a motion for unanimous consent in the House of Commons. Your party is the only one that voted against the motion, Minister. It is difficult for us to understand this decision because NGOs are asking us for this. They were actually very disappointed by the Liberal vote.

We would like to know when your government will do something about this issue with the Criminal Code. Right now, we are not seeing or hearing anything, and nothing is happening.

7 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

That is why the work of parliamentarians here is so important. So thank you for raising the issue. I think that any kind of recommendation from the committee on this matter will be relevant because Canada must play a humanitarian role.

7 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Why does the government need to wait for a committee to make a recommendation when it knows about the problem?

You yourself brought it up. So why are you waiting for a recommendation from the committee? Everyone agrees that this makes no sense.

7 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

We will be happy to work with other parties on the matter, and I am open to solutions.

7 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

I am very happy to hear you say that. I am also happy that journalists are listening, as you said, because your party voted against the motion that was proposed.

I will share with you an email from an NGO that would prefer to remain anonymous, understandably. I received this email yesterday, and it made me a little sad. This may put a bit more pressure on the government.

The email's authors say that failing to implement resolution 2615 in the Canadian context considerably limits the work they can do because they cannot invest any government money in Afghanistan if they do not get an extension of the contractual agreement they previously had. Had the government implemented that resolution or done anything at all to read down section 80.03 of the Criminal Code, it would have been able to provide them with funding to do their work in Afghanistan.

The email continues in the same vein for several paragraphs. People from the NGO are distressed. You have said how much Afghans were suffering. Afghans are suffering because the government is unable to modernize the Criminal Code to reflect the current situation.

7 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

There are various aspects to your comment.

First, we have provided assistance to the NGOs working in Afghanistan. I already said that $145 million was provided.

Second, we are ready to receive from the committee any recommendations and solutions it wants to propose. However, a line must not be crossed, which is essentially the recognition of the Taliban's legitimacy as a government.

7 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

I don't think NGOs are complaining for no reason.

7 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

I think we can talk and find solutions. It would be my pleasure to work with you, Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, and with the Bloc Québécois, of course.

7 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

It would be my pleasure. You know how quickly I answer my telephone when you call me.

Mr. Thoppil, you were at the meeting of April 4, 2022, and I asked you a question you did not answer. When I looked over the list of guests for this evening, I was very happy to see that I would have an opportunity to put the question to you again.

I asked you whether your department had provided a legal opinion on amending the Criminal Code, as requested by NGOs.

This is very simple. If a legal opinion was provided, you can answer me with a yes, and if no legal opinion was provided, you can answer me with a no.

I yield the floor to you, Mr. Thoppil.

7 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

It will be my pleasure to answer for my colleague.

Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, if you have recommendations on the issue, it will be my pleasure to continue the discussion with you and take note of the Bloc Québécois' position.

If the Bloc Québécois essentially says it is prepared to amend the Criminal Code so that the Taliban regime would not be recognized and if it finds a mechanism to do so, I am ready to discuss it with you.

7 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

I have understood.

The question was about whether a legal opinion was provided by the department.

7 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

Generally speaking, I can tell you that we respect our legal opinions. However, as this is related to security issues for the cabinet, my colleague cannot answer this question specifically.