Afghanistan Committee on May 2nd, 2022

[Cindy Termorshuizen]

Perhaps I'll start and then pass the floor to Paul.

I think it's fair to say that we probably have conversations about biometrics on a weekly basis. As the minister said, the issue of biometric collection, particularly inside Afghanistan, is a real challenge. We can collect biometrics in other countries, which we're doing in Pakistan, but the inside-Afghanistan piece is really difficult. None of our allies has cracked this nut because, as the minister said, the ability to collect biometrics in Afghanistan securely, given the security situation some of your colleagues have noted, is challenging.

Let me pass the floor to Paul.

[Paul Thoppil]

Mr. Chair, reach-outs were happening with the EU and Germany in January or February, through what are almost weekly conversations with like-minded...to take a pulse on what is happening on the ground and where there may perhaps be movements others have discovered. As my colleagues have suggested, we're trying to find a way forward because we all desire.... Whether it's Canada's 40,000 commitment or certain countries that still have former locally engaged staff trapped in the country, we're all trying to find a way forward to extract them from what are very challenging circumstances.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Has utilizing ex-military to collect biometrics been considered?

[Paul Thoppil]

Mr. Chair, I think the issue becomes what is Canada's duty of care to any party, whether it's ex-military or not, based on the security situation on the ground. That still has to be triaged. Whether it's Government of Canada personnel or it's through some sort of arrangement, that legal obligation of duty of care still rests on the Government of Canada, from a legal exposure perspective. That is one issue.

The other issue is, how do you move forward in a way that also respects the Criminal Code? There needs to be a legal review of that undertaking, I think, hypothetically.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Just raising—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much, Madam Kwan. Your time is up.

We'll go to the second round now, and we'll start with Mr. Ruff for five minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

I'll start by going back to some of the testimony we heard throughout this committee, and that I've heard first-hand going back to the evacuation, about the lack of coordination between Global Affairs Canada, IRCC and DND during the evacuation.

My question to the officials is, how would you assess the efficiency and effectiveness of interdepartmental coordination and communication during the evacuation?

[Cindy Termorshuizen]

I'd be happy to start, and then I'll ask my colleague Julie Sunday to jump in. Both of us were very much engaged during the actual evacuation period.

There are maybe two points that I would make. One is that the collaboration between National Defence, IRCC and Global Affairs Canada was excellent. We had at Global Affairs Canada, embedded in our emergency watch and response centre, officials from National Defence, CAF individuals were there, and IRCC. We had an integrated team.

The challenge really was the situation on the ground. It was utterly chaotic. We all saw the images of the airport, which was the only way to get out. Being able to effectively conduct an evacuation in such a difficult situation was really the issue, rather than the collaboration between departments.

I'll maybe ask Julie if she wants to add anything.

[Julie Sunday, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Consular, Security and Emergency Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

I would add very quickly that we met daily, and of course in the emergency watch and response centre, where we had our teams, we had IRCC and DND embedded with us.

The week of the evacuation was a huge operation. On the 25th, for example, we had almost 250 staff surged in there to support the evacuation. That week was, as my colleague mentioned, very chaotic, but we also were in a context where the security situation at HKIA, in Kabul, was deteriorating rapidly. Of course, there was the attack on the 26th at the gate of the airport, so—

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thank you for that. I appreciate your opinion on how it was. It does contradict very much what we heard first-hand from many of the military personnel on the ground, including former colleagues of mine.

Previous large-scale evacuations utilized a lead department or a lead minister. Why wasn't there a lead department or minister assigned in this case for this evacuation?

[Cindy Termorshuizen]

What I can say with respect to ministerial engagement is particularly around Global Affairs Canada's minister's engagement. I have to say that I and Mr. Thoppil, Ms. Sunday, as well as other Government of Canada officials, briefed the minister at the time, Minister Garneau, on a daily basis. We had a four corners meeting with the Privy Council Office and other departments on a daily basis. There was intensive coordination between departments, and engaging ministers and the centre, throughout that period.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

I appreciate that there was coordination going on. It unfortunately doesn't seem to fall out with the necessary coordination from everything that we've heard on the ground.

It's been successful in the past—if we look at Syria—when a lead department is put forward. In your opinion, what department should have been the lead during the evacuation?

[Cindy Termorshuizen]

Maybe I could just make a point about the comparison with Syria. I think one of the issues that helped us enormously in the Syrian situation was that all of the individuals we were trying to bring to Canada were already outside of Syria. It wasn't the kind of context that existed in Afghanistan.

I think the member is absolutely correct to say that it was chaotic on the ground. Even with coordination back in Ottawa, trying to do things effectively on the ground was really challenging. That is a very fair point to make with respect to the context around the airport in those days of the evacuation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

You have 15 seconds.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

That didn't really answer the question. I want to know which department should be the lead.

My final question—and I'll accept that they can submit it in writing afterwards, Chair—is this. Has a lessons learned exercise or after-action review been conducted by Global Affairs Canada? If so, will it be made public? If not, when will it be done?

[Cindy Termorshuizen]

Maybe I can go back to the last question the member asked. In terms of a lead department, Global Affairs Canada does have the lead for international consular situations and emergencies like this. There is a lead established under Canadian law.

In terms of lessons learned, we always do lessons learned on large consular and other emergencies of this nature.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Mr. Ruff.

We'll go to Mr. Sidhu.

Go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First off, I'd like to thank our wonderful team from Global Affairs Canada for your incredibly hard work and for joining us tonight. It's not easy work, and the added number of variables and challenges make your job even harder. I just want to say thank you for that.

Our committee has heard about the difficulties that Afghans have faced fleeing Afghanistan and making their way to neighbouring countries before coming to Canada. As you are aware, Pakistan has welcomed a significant number of refugees. There are always humanitarian concerns with refugees fleeing areas of conflict.

Just the other day, 336 Afghan newcomers arrived at the Toronto airport from Pakistan. I was at the airport earlier, a few weeks ago, with Minister Fraser to welcome over 300 Afghan refugees from another neighbouring country.

Can you speak to the work Canada is doing with Pakistan and other countries bordering Afghanistan to ensure that Afghans are able to leave?

[Cindy Termorshuizen]

Sure. I'll start and then pass it once again to Mr. Thoppil.

As Minister Joly mentioned, there has been an enormous amount of engagement with neighbouring countries. Of course, Pakistan has played a particular role because of the long border between the two countries and the fact that there are a fair number of flights that go between the two countries as well.

Paul, could I ask you to respond in more depth?

[Paul Thoppil]

It's a really good question. Notwithstanding a previous response whereby we don't have protocols in place now, we do need to commend the Government of Pakistan for what it did in terms of response during that very pivotal time after the fall of Kabul until November. They acquiesced to our advocacy in terms of what we could provide and identified lists of vulnerable individuals who we knew were going to be crossing the border and then having them ensure that their border guards were apprised of those lists and making sure that those documents were recognized in order to cross over. A significant deployment of personnel went into our High Commission in Islamabad in order to then go with the next up, once they had crossed the border, in terms of them proceeding with biometric screening and, once the processing of those individuals was assured, arranging charter flights, which is why there are now over 12,000 individuals from various parts coming through into Canada.

It's been a significant lift.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Yes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Chair, the bells have started ringing. I suggest that we sit until 8:30 p.m. That still gives us an additional 10 minutes to get to votes.

I ask that you seek the consent of the committee to sit until 8:30 p.m.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chong. That is an excellent suggestion.

I hope I have the unanimous consent of the committee?

Okay, thank you. We'll continue and finish this round.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Deputy Minister Thoppil, can you share with the committee the multilateral work that is being done with Canada's allies to support the people of Afghanistan? We did touch upon Pakistan, but just generally in the region....