Evidence of meeting #11 for Afghanistan in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was officials.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Heidi Hulan  Assistant Deputy Minister and Political Director, International Security and Political Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Cindy Termorshuizen  Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Peter MacDougall  Assistant Deputy Minister, Global Issues and Development, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Miriam Burke
Paul Thoppil  Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia Pacific, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Julie Sunday  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Consular, Security and Emergency Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 11 of the House of Commons Special Committee on Afghanistan, created pursuant to the order of the House of December 8, 2021.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. I would like to remind those present in the room to please follow the recommendations from public health authorities, as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2021, in order to remain healthy and safe.

Should any technical challenges arise, please advise me. We may need to suspend the meeting for a few minutes, in order to ensure that all members are able to participate fully.

I will briefly go over committee business before we go to the minister. For the meeting on May 9, the Minister of National Defence is scheduled. For the meeting on May 16, we will begin in camera for drafting instructions. The analysts will be providing a detailed outline for consideration prior to the meeting. Nothing is in stone until the committee considers and adopts the report, but, given our limited time on May 16, it is my hope that the document can help focus our discussions. Following the drafting instructions, we will resume in public on May 16 for two panels of witnesses of 45 minutes each. Then, on May 30 and June 6, we will consider the draft report. That will enable us to complete our work in time for presentation in the House on June 8.

If there are no questions from the members, I will proceed to the witnesses.

I would like to welcome, on behalf of all committee members, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Honourable Mélanie Joly. Accompanying the minister are associate deputy minister of Foreign Affairs, Cindy Termorshuizen; acting assistant deputy minister, consular, security and emergency management, Julie Sunday; and assistant deputy minister, Asia, Paul Thoppil. Joining us online are assistant deputy minister, international security and political director, Heidi Hulan; and assistant deputy minister, global issues and development, Peter MacDougall.

I understand, Minister, that you will be joining us for the first hour and that your officials will be with us for the second hour. Is that correct?

6:35 p.m.

Ahuntsic-Cartierville Québec

Liberal

Mélanie Joly LiberalMinister of Foreign Affairs

Sukh, you're always right.

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

Thank you, Minister.

I would like to thank the minister and her associates, and to give the floor to the minister for five minutes for opening remarks.

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, respected colleagues.

I am pleased to be joining you today.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before your committee to speak to the terrible situation in Afghanistan.

The Afghan people have endured decades of conflicts and instability, and it would be hard to overstate the difficulties they have been dealing with since the Taliban took power.

Although I was not the Minister of Foreign Affairs when Kabul fell, I can tell you that my predecessor and all members of government, including our public servants at Global Affairs Canada, invested tremendous efforts in an extremely difficult situation to evacuate Canadian citizens, permanent residents and their families, as well as Afghans.

Those efforts continue to this day. My colleague Minister Sean Fraser talked to you about this in detail when he appeared last week. By the way, I would like to commend him on his hard work in this very important file.

I will start with the evacuation. The period leading up to the fall of Kabul last summer was a time of growing insecurity and uncertainty. By mid-July, a full month before the evacuation, all remaining allied military and intelligence assets in Afghanistan were confined to Kabul. Canada's embassy staff were also preparing for the prospect of a temporary closure of our mission in Kabul, as the Taliban moved towards the capital.

I want to underline the complexity and challenges of this task and the work that our foreign service, immigration and Canadian Armed Forces personnel undertook to make it possible. In July and into August, Canada implemented an immigration program for Afghans who were most at risk and undertook a large-scale evacuation.

We want to thank Afghanistan's neighbouring countries, such as Pakistan, Kuwait, the UAE and Qatar, for their support in welcoming the refugees. We remain in close contact with allies and partners in the region to help get as many people out as possible.

While recognizing the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan, our government committed to resettle at least 40,000 Afghan refugees through special immigration measures. Interest in those programs has been unprecedented. So far, we have welcomed over 12,000 Afghan refugees, and more flights are arriving every week.

You have heard from witnesses who appeared before your committee that it is not easy to get people out of Afghanistan. Among the most difficult obstacles to overcome are the inability to find safe, secure and reliable ways to leave the country, the lack of stability in the country and exit requirements that are constantly changing at checkpoints and international crossings. We are working with local partners and neighbouring countries to overcome those obstacles and find solutions for Afghans who want to come to Canada.

Before the fall of Kabul, Afghanistan's humanitarian situation was among the world's worst. The Taliban takeover has only worsened the situation. It threatens to wipe away decades of progress. Afghanistan is today on the brink of universal poverty. We are particularly concerned about the growing food insecurity throughout the country and the backsliding of women's and girls' rights. My colleague, Minister Sajjan, is working hard to ensure that Canada is supporting humanitarian partners who are providing life-saving assistance in Afghanistan.

So far this year, Canada has committed more than $143 million in humanitarian assistance to help people in Afghanistan and Afghans in neighbouring countries. We'll continue to call on the Taliban to ensure that aid workers, including women, have unimpeded access to those in need.

I now want to speak to an issue that is very close to my heart.

While we continue to press the Taliban to respect international humanitarian law and human rights, particularly the rights of women and targeted communities, we have seen a significant step backwards in recent months. The situation that Afghans are facing, and particularly these vulnerable groups, is absolutely terrible. We're deeply concerned by the growing reports of violence and human rights abuses. Civilians, journalists, human rights defenders, government employees and former members of the Afghanistan National Defense and Security Forces are also being targeted.

We continue to call on the Taliban to honour its promise of amnesty. I cannot overstate our condemnation of the Taliban's decision to reverse their commitment on allowing all girls to return to school at the secondary level. Because of their actions, prospects for a better life are being denied to girls. Access to education is a human right to which every woman and every girl is entitled. Canada has been an advocate for a coordinated effort by the international community to pressure the Taliban to uphold human rights.

We're also exploring how to concretely continue our support to Afghan women and Afghan human rights defenders.

I've talked to David Sproule, our special envoy to Afghanistan. I've raised this matter with my counterparts across the globe, including Tony Blinken of the United States, many times, but also to the European Union, Germany, the Netherlands, Indonesia, Qatar, the UAE, Kuwait, Egypt, Pakistan, Norway, Finland and Sweden. My deputy minister has also travelled to Pakistan, Qatar and Kuwait.

Obviously we've raised this, as a country, at the UN. In this area, Canada welcomes the strong human rights mandate of the UN mission to Afghanistan, following the Security Council's renewal of the mission on March 17. We also welcomed the appointment of Richard Bennett as the UN special rapporteur on human rights in Afghanistan.

The Taliban's takeover of Afghanistan has had profound implications for regional stability and for global security. The Taliban is a listed—

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

Could you please wrap up? Thank you.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

Yes, of course.

We know that the Taliban is a listed terrorist entity under Canadian law. Because of this, coupled with a security situation on the ground that is difficult, we have no longer a footprint in Afghanistan. I know that you will have questions for me on this very issue, and of course, I'm pleased to answer them.

Thank you so much.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

Thank you, Minister.

Now we will proceed to the honourable members for the first round. Starting the round is Honourable Chong. Please go ahead for six minutes.

May 2nd, 2022 / 6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for appearing.

I have a quick request, a quick question and then some more substantive questions. Officials from your department said they would provide us with a written answer about when Canadian officials last made representations to the Chinese officials about Huseyin Cilil. We did receive a written answer, but it wasn't an answer to the question. I'm wondering if the officials wouldn't mind following up with a written answer to us on this issue, because it's important for constituents.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

It's not linked to the committee, but yes, of course we'll provide that information.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

I just wanted to follow up for the foreign affairs committee.

I know this is tangentially related, but do you have an update as to when the Indo-Pacific strategy will be completed?

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

Are you acting as a member of the foreign affairs committee right now or the committee on Afghanistan?

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Afghanistan is arguably—

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

But it's okay, Michael. I'll answer the question.

Yes, we're working on the Indo-Pacific strategy. Paul is working day and night on this—but you have to work more, Paul.

Yes, we will obviously present an Indo-Pacific strategy. That's one of the reasons we, together with others, went to the Indo-Pacific. I was in Indonesia and Vietnam.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Do you have any sense of timing? Is it weeks, months, six months from now?

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

I'm an impatient person in general.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Okay. Thank you, Minister.

I have a question regarding the National Resistance Front. Have you met recently with representatives from the front? What, if anything, is the Government of Canada doing to provide moral or material support to them? Have there been discussions with allies regarding the National Resistance Front in Afghanistan?

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

I know my department has been in contact with the National Resistance Front. I have not met with them personally, but we know they do important work.

At the same time, David Sproule has been also very much apprised of the issue. He is our special envoy to Afghanistan. That's good news, because he had an interim posting, and we recently announced that he would be permanent in his position, because obviously we're very concerned about what's going on in Afghanistan. He's still based out of Doha, but we want to make sure he continues to do his work.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

The government is broadly supportive of this organization. Is that a safe...?

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

We are in contact with them.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Okay, so the government's in contact with them, but doesn't have a formal position—

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

Not yet....

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

—on them.

Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that answer.

I'd like to raise an issue that was brought to the attention of this committee recently. There are about 40 signatories to a submission that we received. These were locally engaged staff on the ground in Afghanistan. They were given severance payments and pensions for the work they had done for Canada, but when they filed their 2021 taxes, they were hit with taxes as if they were Canadian residents.

It seems to me there's a question of fairness here, because the work they had done was in Kabul and in Afghanistan and not here in Canada, and the work was done before they were permanent residents of Canada, and residents of Canada for the purposes of the Income Tax Act. While the Canada Revenue Agency may be following the letter of the law, it doesn't seem to be consistent with the spirit of our commitment to Afghans who had a significant and enduring connection to Canada.

I'm wondering if you are working with your colleagues to seek a resolution to this matter.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

I was made aware of this situation recently, and yes, we are looking into it, because obviously we want to make sure there's a level of fairness that is being met when dealing with this issue. I also will follow up with my deputy minister on this issue.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Okay.

This is more of an open-ended question. This is your last appearance in front of our committee before we go into drafting instructions to report back to the House as they have ordered us. We would like to include recommendations in that report to assist future governments in the execution of their role.

What advice could you give to this committee about what we could have done better in evacuating Afghans from Afghanistan last August, particularly Afghans who have an enduring and significant connection to Canada? It seems to me that some of our allies did a better job than we did. We evacuated some 3,500 Afghans by the end of the August. If I look at the United Kingdom, they evacuated 11,000 people. NATO allies, particularly the U.S., evacuated over 70,000 people.

What lessons can we learn from this that we could include in our recommendations to assist future governments?

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

Your question is definitely valuable, Michael, because the goal of this committee is to do better in a difficult situation, to be able to provide recommendations and to always do better in difficult situations.

I would say not only Canada, but also the world and, particularly, NATO allies, took note of what happened in Afghanistan when dealing with other issues, including Ukraine.

That being said, you have to compare oranges with oranges. As you well know, Canada left Afghanistan in 2014. We didn't have a very strong military presence on the ground, which was obviously different from the Americans and other NATO countries. That limited our capacity to get people out. That being said, we were able to work with some of these like-minded countries to get people out, while our presence was already limited.

Of course, hindsight is 20/20. At the time—and I was not minister—