Afghanistan Committee on Nov. 25th, 2009

[Gen Rick Hillier]

It is almost a question.

What I would say is this. We had already started taking those actions when she issued that judgment. On November 5, 2007, we stopped the transfer of detainees because we no longer had the confidence that we could meet our command responsibilities. We were still continuing the cessation of those transfers up until that time, until we were all comfortable--starting with the guy on the ground who was in on a daily basis--that the regime to oversee, to train, to improve, to investigate, and follow up was in place on the ground. We weren't about to move ahead, despite letters from other people--which General Gauthier referred to--saying they thought it was good to go. We had a slightly higher standard, and I certainly wanted to protect the commanders on the ground and every single soldier that we deployed.

So, Mr. Dosanjh, those actions were already ongoing at that point in time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Bachand.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I too want to welcome our witnesses. I will share my time with my colleague, Francine Lalonde.

First of all, I want to clarify something. The basic objective of this committee really is to try and protect our military since we might be actioned on the basis of the Geneva Convention. This is especially a responsibility for the people around this table and in the Canadian Parliament. We know that our military is under the authority of the civilian branch. What I mean is that even if members of the military were to be blamed, our civilian authorities would be painted with the same brush since they are the ones who are ultimately responsible for the conduct of our Forces.

Everyone here recognizes that the suspected torture we are dealing with has certainly not being inflicted by Canadian soldiers. What we are trying to find out is if Canadian soldiers like you, on the ground, knew that torture was being practiced and if, despite that, they still transferred detainees. That is our main concern.

I do not want to challenge your statements but I also know that there is a strong esprit de corps in the Canadian Forces. The military is an organization where it would be extremely rare that experienced leaders like you would contradict each other. As far as I am concerned, that is not conceivable. I congratulate you for the consistency of your statements, since no one contradicted the others, which is good.

That being said, we also have other information sources. Can you explain to me how you can state that absolutely nothing happened when Amnesty International, the Independent Afghanistan Human Rights Commission and the Red Cross all stated that torture was being practiced in the prisons? Even a guard in the Sarposa prison stated that torturing prisoners it was routine. International diplomats said the same thing. Today, a Canadian diplomat repeated statements made by Mr. Colvin as well as by many reporters. You referred to the Globe and Mail but I can also mention Mrs. Ouimet of La Presse who reported on what she saw there. All the Opposition parties believe that torture was being practiced. Why are you trying to convince us that it was not?

Mr. Gauthier, I want to ask you something because you have read the reports. You are lucky. We would like to see those reports. Did I understand correctly that you are recommending that the government provide us with the reports because that would be very helpful to us? Can you now convince members of the committee and members of the public that there was no torture, when all the organizations I just mentioned stated that there was?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Mr. Gauthier, go ahead.

[LGen Michel Gauthier]

First of all, thank you for your question. You are referring to the original policy of 2005. I was not the commander at the time. That being said, this was not a military policy but a government policy. My suggestion would be that you put your question to the ministers of the day.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

You claim that you did not see any torture when you were there. According to you, prisoners were not tortured, even though all the people I have just mentioned stated that they were. Why is there such a difference of opinion between military leaders and international organizations?

[LGen Michel Gauthier]

We are not referring to military leaders, Mr. Bachand, we are referring to the Afghan military and the chain of command. I talked regularly to soldiers in Afghanistan, once every two months. There is no need for me to repeat what I said in my preliminary statement, obviously.

You say that everyone knew. Someone on the ground will have to tell us, or someone tasked with interpreting strategic information--the experts, for a start--will have to inform us and to inform the government that there is a problem that we do not see, that we did not see and that was not reported between February 1, 2006 and January 4, 2007.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Good afternoon.

I thank you for being here, in these important circumstances, even though they not be very enjoyable.

I am glad to have heard you because yours is the best testimony one may have about the consequences of having transformed a peacekeeping military in an army carrying out a dirty war.

My question is for General Hillier. The first problem is that there is a war, but the origin of the issue of torturing detainees is the 2005 agreement. General, your name is at the bottom of that agreement. At that time, the Dutch signed an agreement including the provisions that are in the 2007 agreement, such as full access at all times, in order to make sure that they could visit the prisons at any time even if the jailers claimed that there was no torture. Their agreement allowed the Red Cross to go there at any time and not only upon request as is stated in your 2005 agreement.

About the 2005 agreement, you were not the only one tasked with negotiating it. That was not your job. How did that happen? Who advised you?

[Gen Rick Hillier]

Thank you for the question, madame.

And let me say that I didn't negotiate any part of the 2005 agreement. I signed that agreement on behalf of the Government of Canada, with its full approval. It had been negotiated by experts from the Department of National Defence and the Department of Foreign Affairs, with input from international law experts. And if you want to listen, I'll be able to tell you, since you asked the question, that I was on my way into Kandahar in early December 2005 because we had established now the provincial reconstruction team on Kandahar airfield and were in the process of building up infrastructure to receive the battle group. I was going to visit Kabul, and one of the people I was going to visit was the minister of national defence, Minister Wardak, who I knew very well from our previous time working together when I was the commander of ISAF.

The agreement was then ready. The international experts, including the judge advocate general for the Canadian Forces, had given their opinions that this was a good agreement, well thought through--perhaps in hindsight, it could have been better--and that it was ready for signature; and Minister Wardak, knowing I was coming to Kabul, asked if I would sign it on behalf of the Government of Canada. Because he was signing on behalf of the Government of Afghanistan, I had no problem with that whatsoever.

Ambassador David Sproule, who I then spoke to before we went to the defence minister, said Foreign Affairs was very comfortable with this. The agreement was ready. It was a Government of Canada to a Government of Afghanistan agreement. We went to Minister Wardak's office, we had our coffee, we signed the document with Ambassador Sproule orchestrating, moving the papers around with little yellow stickies, and then, much to my embarrassment, Minister Wardak slipped outside for a cigarette and I slipped out for a cigar.

I signed that agreement at his request because I was in theatre. It was an agreement between the Government of Canada and Afghanistan.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Hawn.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming.

General Hillier, I'm going to ask you some questions and I'd really appreciate a yes or no answer. I know that may be difficult.

General Gauthier, I'd like you to listen to those answers, because I'll ask you at the end whether any of your answers would have differed.

First of all, is it easy to not contradict each other when you're telling the truth?

[Gen Rick Hillier]

I can't give you a yes or no, Laurie.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Make it real short, please.

[Gen Rick Hillier]

I apologize. My dad used to say, if you don't lie, you don't have to remember anything. That was pretty sage advice from a Newfoundlander. I said what I had to say. The mere fact that there was no contradiction, I think, reflects a system that worked pretty well.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Was the Afghan mission part of your daily brief?

[Gen Rick Hillier]

My daily brief?

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Yes.

[Gen Rick Hillier]

Yes, absolutely.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

When you visited Afghanistan the many times, did you normally talk to everybody at all levels in Afghanistan, from President Karzai on down to soldiers?

[Gen Rick Hillier]

I did, but I actually started with the latter almost always and worked through thousands of soldiers and civilians, upwards to and oftentimes with the President himself, although not always.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Did you talk to representatives from the other ISAF countries normally when you went to Afghanistan?

[Gen Rick Hillier]

Almost always. Perhaps always.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Were you in contact with the strategic advisory team, which was obviously in close contact with the Afghan government?

[Gen Rick Hillier]

Yes, I was. That was a routine visit, and I spent significant time with them each time.