Evidence of meeting #16 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
Gen Rick Hillier
Could I make one short comment on that one?
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Maybe later, I'm sorry. And I hate to say that to you. Trust me.
General Fraser.
4:50 p.m.
Gen Rick Hillier
I don't make a lot of short comments, that's all.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
I know. I want to come back to you, but I have so little time and I don't get to do this again.
General Fraser, it came up in testimony the other day. There were two avenues of concerns around torture that seemed to be outlined. One was the handing over to the prisons and the reports we've referenced. I asked Mr. Colvin, the witness who was here at committee the other day, about this.
The other was with Governor Khalid, and I asked him questions about that. Were you aware of the allegations, not around the prisons because we've established that, but around Governor Khalid? Did you hear allegations around Governor Khalid's involvement in torture, and if so, how did you receive that information if that was the case?
4:50 p.m.
MGen David Fraser
I didn't receive any information about that.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
So you never received allegations about Governor Khalid's involvement in torture. That was the question I asked Mr. Colvin, because we have concerns obviously about Governor Khalid. But you never received information or allegations about torture with regard to Governor Khalid?
4:50 p.m.
MGen David Fraser
Nothing came to my level.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Okay.
Obviously, people were concerned about his conduct. I mean, you had heard about that, about Governor Khalid's conduct.
4:50 p.m.
MGen David Fraser
I dealt with the governors of the six southern provinces as part of my responsibility, including Khalid. He and I would meet several times a week.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
General Gauthier, one of the things you're establishing is that from May 2006 and onward to when we first dealt with the issue of detainee transfer, you hadn't received or seen any reports on torture. However, what I understood from Mr. Colvin's testimony was that there were concerns around the process, and the process where we were handing over detainees who weren't being tracked. I'm wondering from you if your evidence is that, when we handed over detainees, you received reports about what happens to those detainees after they've been handed over to the Afghans, in terms of tracking and in terms of concerns around what happens to them when they leave and the process.
What we got from Mr. Colvin was that the process was such that the Canadian military police in Kandahar would inform the Canadian Forces at the Kandahar field, who would then tell the forces at CEFCOM in Ottawa. CEFCOM would eventually inform the Canadian embassy in Geneva and then inform the Red Cross in Geneva. What I got from his evidence was that there was a huge problem. How would you know what happens to the detainees? This process was extremely laborious. How would you know what happens to them with this kind of setup?
Was it your evidence that you had not heard any concerns about the process from May 2006 until later in 2007?
4:50 p.m.
LGen Michel Gauthier
Can I give a longer answer to this, rather than a shorter answer?
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
It's up to you, but I know General Hillier wanted to make a comment too. So I'll leave it to the two of you.
4:50 p.m.
LGen Michel Gauthier
You made reference to tracking. In 2006, tracking detainees after a transfer was an independent human rights agency responsibility, in our policy, signed between us and Afghans. It was up to the Afghan government to treat all detainees in accordance with the Geneva Convention and to allow full access to the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission and the ICRC. Soldiers certainly had no role to play in tracking.
4:55 p.m.
LGen Michel Gauthier
Soldiers would play no role in tracking. That is my answer to the question, Mr. Dewar.
4:55 p.m.
LGen Michel Gauthier
I wouldn't know how many what?
4:55 p.m.
LGen Michel Gauthier
Of course we would.
4:55 p.m.
LGen Michel Gauthier
Absolutely, in great detail, on a day-to-day, week-to-week basis.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
We've asked but we haven't been told. So I'm just asking, because we have never been told.
4:55 p.m.
LGen Michel Gauthier
Certainly. That's for sure, and thanks for that clarification.
Tracking up to the point of transfer was absolutely our responsibility. There may have been issues with the detail of the specific information that was being kept and who it was provided to, and so on. General Fraser referred to that.
I saw some traffic on those issues, the C4 messages. They had nothing to do with torture. They did not say that all Afghans we had handed over were tortured. There was none of that in those reports. It referred to process, and there were many people engaged in the process.
If I can take issue with the specific issue you raised and the example you gave, I saw some great graphics on CBC the other day—can I mention CBC in here?—
4:55 p.m.
LGen Michel Gauthier
—of how complex this was, information going from one place to the next. I have to say, what was described was not close to the way the process actually worked. That's my first comment.
Secondly, Mr. Colvin, in his testimony, made reference to this being a military process. I'm surprised he didn't understand that these were human rights issues. They were Foreign Affairs and legal issues, above all. In fact, the dictates of the process were driven by the Department of Foreign Affairs.