Evidence of meeting #4 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nds.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
General, it's good to see you again. I remember seeing you in Kandahar just a few days after you had arrived. I appreciated the time we spent together there.
You heard the testimony of Cory Anderson, particularly his assessment of the NDS. What are your comments on his testimony? Do you agree with his assessment?
4:40 p.m.
BGen Denis William Thompson
I'm not going to comment on his entire testimony, but I'll certainly speak to the NDS, if that's what you're asking.
4:40 p.m.
BGen Denis William Thompson
I had a relationship with General Quyaum and, following him, with General Momin. I went every week to what was called the weekly provincial security meeting. It was chaired by the governor and attended by General Quyaum, or whoever the NDS commander was; the Afghan brigade commander; the police commander; the prosecutor; and the general from the Afghan National Civil Order Police. There were six generals and a governor sitting around the table. Clearly, we had a close personal relationship because we were trying to fight the insurgency across the whole province.
My assessment of the NDS in terms of fighting the insurgency was that they were a very valuable partner. We acted on the intelligence we received from the NDS.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
You arrived in May 2008. There are reports that Brigadier General Laroche, who commanded the Joint Task Force Afghanistan in November 2007, stopped the transfer, and that Colonel Juneau, who was deputy commander at the time, had concerns, particularly about the lack of information they were getting concerning these transfers.
You have indicated that during your time there were no negative reports. What changed that would account for that?
4:40 p.m.
BGen Denis William Thompson
Remember, this is a whole-of-government team. We can't look at the detainee problem as “this is what the army did”, or “this is what the other government department did”. We were working hand-in-hand throughout this whole mission.
4:45 p.m.
BGen Denis William Thompson
Not only that, but my partner was the representative of Canada in Kandahar, Madam Elissa Golberg. These are issues we played with all the time. I would say that as an organization, the whole-of-government team together is a learning institution.
So the allegations of torture that came out in November 2007, which resulted in the halting of detainee transfers until February 2008, and all of the activity that went on behind the scenes--which I wasn't present for, but certainly was briefed on by General Laroche--were exactly the sorts of mitigating actions you want to take to learn from the past, ameliorate the conditions for the future, and make sure the transfers can carry on, which they did. I believe the transfers recommenced in late February 2008, and by the time I got there the situation had been fixed to the satisfaction of the whole-of-government team, not just the general.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
On the transfer of one quarter of the detainees to the NDS, what follow-up was done to ensure there was no abuse?
4:45 p.m.
BGen Denis William Thompson
It's precisely as you heard from Mr. Anderson. As frequently as they wished—but generally speaking, because there wasn't a set schedule—there was a visit to the NDS facility by the DFAIT author responsible for the file, who was based in the provincial reconstruction team in Kandahar City. That visit, as Mr. Anderson pointed out, was facilitated by the Canadian Forces because we're the only guys who can manoeuvre in that space, due to the threat level.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
In terms of the information you received after the fact, you followed up on that, and obviously your political adviser followed up, and at no time was any information relayed back to Ottawa to suggest anything other than that things were fine on the ground?
4:45 p.m.
BGen Denis William Thompson
During my command tour, there were no reports. I'm responsible, so if some do surface, then I'll take it on the chin; but to my knowledge, there are no reports of any breakdown in the transfer system that we had in place.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
As you know, General, we're having this issue with regard to redacted documents. Have you seen those documents unredacted?
4:45 p.m.
BGen Denis William Thompson
I have the redacted task force standing order in front of me right here. This was passed on to you. I just wanted to make sure I was reading the same thing, or at least had reference to the same documents you did. It's my signature block on the bottom.
The unredacted version of this does not remove the substance of the document. If you read this, you'll understand the transfer process I just described. I think it's pretty black and white in here. The redacted bits refer to third parties, who we're not supposed to mention for access to information reasons.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
We know it's pretty black, General.
Obviously what we're looking for is not intelligence information or information that would harm our allies in the operation in any way, but simply whether or not there were any signs of torture. If there were, how were they dealt with and who knew about that torture?
4:45 p.m.
BGen Denis William Thompson
Right. Again, as I tried to make as clear as possible, between May 14, 2008, and February 19, 2009, there were no reports, no cases that were brought to my attention.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
My final question is what do you attribute that change to—from there being reports prior to your command to absolutely no reports during your command?
4:45 p.m.
BGen Denis William Thompson
As I said, things evolve and people learn. There's no doubt that the system needed to be tweaked as we went along. Those tweaks and those changes were made, and the visit regime tightened up, so we could assure Canadians that the people we were transferring into the custody of the NDS were not going to be subjected to torture or abuse, as outlined in the TFSO. The task force standing order is very clear on that.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
This is a hypothetical question, but since that time there have been other reports of abuse that have come out. Would that be a fair statement?
4:45 p.m.
BGen Denis William Thompson
I don't know.
I'm not trying to be coy here. I stepped away from the Afghan file and took up my post as the chief of staff of land operations, which generate forces for Afghanistan, and passed on the lessons I had learned to the next generation of soldiers that would go over there. However, I do not have any special insights into the Afghan file from the day I left, and that's the way it is. I don't have access to the classified system. And frankly, I think it's better for my mental health to step away from the whole thing. That's just me.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
4:45 p.m.
BGen Denis William Thompson
Yes, that is correct. The same rank as our friend, Guy Laroche.
4:45 p.m.
Bloc
Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
There is a military base in my riding, but I have never learned how to decipher the decorations, the stripes, so I say “Mr.”
I found your presentation particularly interesting. I would like you to explain what you say on page 2, where it reads:
The decision to transfer to the National Directorate of Security was based on whether or not I believed there was sufficient evidence to link the detainee to the insurgency. I want to know why say that.
You go on to say:
If the detainee was to be transferred it would only occur if I was satisfied that “there are not substantial grounds for believing that there exists a real risk the detainee would be in danger of being subjected to torture or other forms of mistreatment if transferred.”
I am eager to hear what you have to say about that.
