Afghanistan Committee on April 14th, 2010

[Eileen Olexiuk]

Well, very crowded rooms.... One I remember in particular, there were two or three levels of bunk beds and people were on the floor eating. As you know, Afghans put an oilcloth on the floor to eat, and they had to take turns because there wasn't enough room. So that's how crowded it was. And I've seen in several places a description of the conditions as “medieval”, and that's....

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

You would agree with that?

But just to confirm Bryon's point, the time you were there, the 2002 to 2005 period, our troop levels were not such that we were capturing a lot of troops. Were you part of the discussions with the ambassador or anyone else about the negotiation of the new agreement with the Government of Afghanistan on the question of detainee transfer?

[Eileen Olexiuk]

No.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

No. You weren't part of that discussion.

[Eileen Olexiuk]

No, not in Kabul.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Rae.

Madame Lalonde.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Can you hear me?

[Eileen Olexiuk]

Oui, ça va.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you very much—

[Eileen Olexiuk]

Please excuse me. I've been retired too long. I don't remember how these things work.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

First of all, I want to thank you for your testimony. Despite the fact that you didn't say at the start what you said at the end, I find it edifying to see your desire to be non-partisan, to defend your country and to be objective. A number of young people would be happy to hear you.

You can help us because you have a lot of experience and knowledge. One of the articles written after your interview states that, in each of the reports you prepared, you outlined the risks that Afghan inmates would be tortured by Afghan authorities. It states that this was known to be the way they used to get information. Are you confirming that?

[Eileen Olexiuk]

Do you mean that I said that? Yes. But it's a little bit out of context.

It's as I was saying earlier. It was well known. I mean, people talked about that. It was written in many reports down there, in writing, which you can see. I am not getting this myself.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Perhaps that's why you said you wanted to speak in support of Mr. Colvin. You said that.

[Eileen Olexiuk]

Yes, I guess so.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

You're also reported as saying that, when Paul Martin agreed for Canadian troops to be transferred to Kandahar in 2005, you saw fit to issue a warning. You warned the government that the agreement it was preparing to sign on the transfer of prisoners did not offer—

[Eileen Olexiuk]

This doesn't work. It's in French; I understood you, but—

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Is that fine now?

So you warned the government that the agreement it was preparing to sign on the transfer of prisoners did not offer enough protection.

[Eileen Olexiuk]

Again, it's a little out of context. I had a glance at the agreement--I'd say that--when I was in Ottawa. I can't say that it was to Paul Martin or anyone like that. But it was in a meeting. I wasn't actually asked to comment on the agreement, because there are human rights specialists and international law specialists. But I was invited to the meeting. I said, informally, that we can't do that. We can't transfer them like that without.... We have to make sure that we can have access to them, or something like that. We have to get all the data on them. We have to know who they are, because there are probably, I don't know, a million Mohammeds or Ahmeds in Afghanistan. You have to really be specific, and we should follow them.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

So you were surprised not to find assurances in the agreement on what you've just said. You were surprised.

[Eileen Olexiuk]

Yes. Well, actually, it was a draft agreement, as you can imagine. But when I saw the real one online--I think in November I saw both of them--I noticed that it did not have this right of access.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Do you think the risk of torture was great, not to say proven? At the outset, did that have an influence on the way the man in the street judged the allies and Canada?

[Eileen Olexiuk]

I'm not sure what the question means. I'm sorry, but you asked, what would the man in the street...?

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

You said earlier that you were asked to report on what the man in the street thought. What did the man in the street think about the fact that the people Canada took as prisoners risked being tortured.

[Eileen Olexiuk]

Okay.

Let me tell you, they are so accustomed to this way of behaving that I'm not sure they would have thought any worse of us particularly. They did have Americans there before. They had just lived through a Taliban regime. They had lived through civil war. So when I say that violence and sometimes torture were almost a way of life for them for such a long time, I don't think they would have thought any worse of us.