Evidence of meeting #5 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
In other words, for them, Canada didn't mean anything different from the Taliban. Is that what you're saying?
4:50 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
No, I can't say that. Of course, it would mean something different. But what I want to tell you is that the fact that the people who were detained were tortured by the Afghan authorities would not have been a big surprise to them. And I'm sure they would not have understood we had arrangements, and they would not understand what transfer agreements, and so on, were all about. I don't think so.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much. Your time is up on that question.
We'll move over to the government side and Mr. Obhrai.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Olexiuk, I agree with your statement. As the Parliamentary Secretary for Foreign Affairs, I deal with bureaucrats all the time and I can vouch for what you just said in your statement today, that they do the best thing for Canada in a non-partisan way. So I want to thank you on behalf of Canada and my colleagues.
The question here, Ms. Olexiuk, is a very important one. Canada went into the Afghanistan theatre, and it's very important that during your time there you issued a lot of reports. You brought in a lot of issues of human rights in the early time the government was there. Of course, you are saying, and I agree with you, that it's not partisan with you. But at that given time, the government in action was across the aisle, and one of the most senior members of that government, in that cabinet, is sitting right across from me. One would be very interested in knowing, what did he know? Today he stood up in the House of Commons and talked about the ICC, he talked about the Criminal Code, and he talked about the government knowing this.
My main question to you, in regard to your reports on this thing, is what did you tell the senior members of the government, in your view? Did you have a discussion or anything else? This is a very serious charge he has made. He's made a charge, not recognizing that he will be facing the same charges for the things you have just said today about their ignoring your reports on human rights abuses.
So perhaps you can tell us how much discussion did you have with the foreign ministers at that given time—Mr. Pettigrew and Mr. Bill Graham? How far did those go, and we would like to know how much deeper this abuse you talked about went to the Liberal government and the member sitting opposite here. What did he know about it? We will find out later on. We would like you to tell us now, in your view, how much do you think the government of the day knew about human rights abuses.
4:55 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
I reported to my department. I didn't report to the political side, if I could call it that. I didn't report to ministers. So you'd have to ask someone in the department how it went up the line, because I wasn't there.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB
So in your recollection, with all these human rights reports you issued and everything, and with the minister coming over there, you did not have any brief discussions with or talk to any of the senior members of the government. By that I mean the Minister of Foreign Affairs. You had absolutely no.... You did not express any of the concerns verbally to them.
4:55 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
No, I did not.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB
Nothing. So it all went through the chain of command, as you have stated here. And it is your view that this government, as you said, totally ignored your concerns.
4:55 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
Well, I felt that I didn't get any feedback, but that's in general.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB
I recall that you just talked about that agreement, which was subsequently done in 2005, and you did not see any of those.... Your real first report was done in 2002 and 2003. Yet in that report, in which you made it very clear--I want to make the point very clearly. You raised the concerns about human rights, which this government knew. Yet that did not go into the 2005 agreement as you saw it online, right?
4:55 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
Yes.
4:55 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
The arrangements....
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB
Which means that this government, knowing the fact that there were human rights abuses, did not take any action in regard to the detainees. I want that to go on the record, Mr. Chairman.
4:55 p.m.
A voice
[Inaudible--Editor]
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB
You had your day. Let me have mine.
I want to make it very clear. It's on the record that this government was aware of the human rights abuses to the detainees. And according to the witness who is here, she did not see this government take any action to put that member sitting there, who was a senior member of the cabinet, who should be facing charges too, as you so kindly put it....
I'm trying to understand and bring this thing.... I do understand.
You've done an excellent job of coming and saying what was there at that time. You have given us an excellent window into what transpired during that period of time, because to date we have not had the Liberal foreign ministers or anybody from the Liberal Party have the courage to come and sit over there and talk about the time of the detainee human rights abuses when they were in power. You are the first witness to come and show that, and I want that truly noted very well, Mr. Chair.
Now, in your view, when the 2005 arrangements, the transfer arrangements, came through, what, in your opinion, was the flaw in this agreement?
4:55 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
That's just my opinion, because I knew maybe a little bit more about Afghanistan than some of the other colleagues around the table. I thought we should have had some right of access to the people we had detained and transferred and that we should have very clear identification of who these people were.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB
For the record, in 2007, when this government came with an agreement, we had that right to access, which is exactly what you're saying.
May I thank you once more, on behalf of everyone, for doing a great job for Canada.
Thank you.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Ms. Olexiuk, for coming and joining us today.
I was impressed with your approach and with your experience in Bosnia and other difficult places and also with your strong expression of acting in the interests of Canada.
I want to ask you a little about the interests of Canada, as a diplomat serving the country abroad in a non-partisan way. You talked about the medieval conditions in the jails there. You talked about the fact that it was well known in Afghanistan among you and I assume all the others in the diplomatic corps and in the various agencies. I guess it was no surprise to you that Mr. Colvin would be writing reports similar to yours describing these circumstances. Is that true, first of all?
5 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
Well, it was quite different in that his reports seemed to be first-hand knowledge, whereas mine were a sum total of many opinions and published reports.
5 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
But it's fair to say, though, that.... You wrote reports in 2002, 2003, and 2004.
5 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
Yes, they were reports on those years. They came out in January the next year.
5 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
And those reports would have been consistent in the sense that there are problems with the way they handle the rule of law in terms of how they handle prisoners?