Evidence of meeting #26 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was regulations.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

France Gravel  President, Filière biologique du Québec
Dwight Foster  Director, Ontario Soybean Growers
Colleen Ross  Women's President, National Farmers Union
Glenn Tait  Board Member, National Farmers Union
Julie Belzile  Regulatory Affairs Advisor, Filière biologique du Québec
Kevin Soady-Easton  Butcher, Empire Meat Company
Louis Roesch  Owner, Roesch Meats and More
Carl Norg  Micro Meat Processor, Carl's Choice Meats

12:20 p.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Could this also have an influence on product quality? If I understand properly, in the case of the United States, the lowest common denominator will be used in these agreements. The Americans are wielding the big end of the stick. Perhaps standards that are not as strict as ours will be used for organic certification, but this does not mean that the product will be a health hazard. You are specialists. However, such products will not always necessarily be what we consider to be a true organic product. In a way, we are cornered. The product will be labelled as organic, but not according to our standards.

12:20 p.m.

President, Filière biologique du Québec

France Gravel

Let's take a very simple example: maple syrup. In Quebec, the maple syrup industry has a very high profile, and we have developed a fairly complete set of specifications. It is about 15 pages long and contains criteria which determine whether Quebec's maple syrup can be considered organic. The U.S. regulations are one paragraph long. So with regard to maple syrup, we will negotiate an agreement with the United States because we don't have a choice. American maple syrup will enter Canada. The U.S. syrup will meet two criteria, whereas Quebec's maple syrup already meets 15 pages of criteria. That's what we mean when we say that we will not be able to compete. We won't be on a level playing field; there will be unfair competition.

12:20 p.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Normally, we would buy maple syrup produced here, but the consumer will see two different products, both certified organic. He will not see the specifications, not at all; the consumer is not aware of the specifications and so will not be able to tell the difference between the two products.

12:20 p.m.

President, Filière biologique du Québec

France Gravel

I would like to add that we will not only be importing U.S. organic products, but we will also be importing their scandals. In the United States, there are problems with regard to access to pastureland for dairy production. There are also serious issues with regard to access to foreign markets in the poultry sector. That's why we indicate in our report that the European market is much bigger and more stable than the American one, which is very much in flux. There are always media reports about issues concerning production in the United States which do not occur elsewhere. We do not want to import this kind of problem because it might have negative repercussions on the long-term viability of the industry.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you very much. We'll have Mr. Shipley for five minutes.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses, for coming out.

I think a good point was made by my colleague Mr. Easter regarding BSE and the $500 million. We're looking at how we can be competitive. The $500 million that went out particularly and supposedly to the beef producers was lost in terms of the beef producers. That's why ad hoc programs don't work. Also, that raises the question of why it didn't get stopped when they knew it was happening. However, that's another issue.

When we were talking, first of all—this is more to Mr. Foster and certainly Ms. Ross and Mr. Tait—in terms of partnering with technology, we talked about GM commodities. Each of you obviously uses those except if you're in the organic sector, likely. The comment was made that there needs to be a larger public component. If you look back, in terms of research and development technology, we also believe there needs to be a larger public component to it.

Do you believe it should be all public? Do you believe there needs to be a partner with a technology, with the private companies so that the products you're growing that have a genetically modified component to them are actually available? Do you believe that government is the best place to be doing all that research?

Mr. Foster.

12:25 p.m.

Director, Ontario Soybean Growers

Dwight Foster

It's clear that they spend millions and millions of dollars to develop this technology. Yesterday I sat in Guelph at the soybean board meeting, and we addressed issues, such as whether we are going to support this research. At the end of the day, the answer was yes. We want to support research. Research is innovation, and innovation is a good thing. You understand that, Randy. You agree with that.

The problem is that we want to see research scientists work together, but on the other side of the coin, they come up with a new technology, and they spend millions of dollars doing it.

It's like the Iogen plant right next door here. We spent millions of dollars on that technology, and then they say that they're going to the U.S. They're going to move somewhere else, that they won't use Canadian straw in that plant. That was risk, wasn't it? That was very real. That almost happened. Now I understand they're going to build a facility right in your back door, Randy. I think you're happy about that.

What do I have to say about that? I would like to see the research. It's going to be partnered together with federal and provincial dollars, but at the end of the day, it's Monsanto's technology. Are we prepared to spend dollars and allow that to go there? If they're going to put dollars into it, they get the right to the technology. I firmly believe that.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Be quick, because I do want to follow up with a question after that on it. Go ahead.

12:25 p.m.

Board Member, National Farmers Union

Glenn Tait

The research dollar should be largely public. Funding should direct research to the betterment of farmers and to the betterment of consumers. However, I can't stop private investment as well. They can develop whatever they want to develop, except—getting back to what Mr. Atamanenko said—it should not go into GM wheat. No, it should not. We should stop it before Monsanto Canada has a coronary. We could start it again eventually, but we should be sure of what we're doing. Both sources of funding should operate with some restrictions based on the public good. Should we invest in GM wheat? No, we're going to lose markets, and it's going to increase my costs as a farmer.

But all research is not going to be stopped.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

I think that sort of leads to my next question. I'm not so sure that everybody wants government to be making these decisions in isolation. I think that's why when, Dwight, you were talking at the soybean board, we actually need firm, supported documentation from the users, from the growers, from the industry to help us. Nothing's ever just black and white, so there are always things that are positive about it and things that are negative.

From my perspective, to make informed decisions, we as legislators need to have the feedback from those organizations that are either going to benefit or that are going to be seen as a detriment for us. I leave that as a comment as a farmer, or at least a past farmer now, since I lease it out to my neighbour.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you, Mr. Shipley. Your time has expired.

Our time for this meeting allotment has expired as well. I'd like to thank our witnesses for participating in our competitiveness study. I appreciate your being here. Thank you very much.

We'll recess for about five minutes, and we have another panel of witnesses coming in. Thank you.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Welcome to our witnesses.

We're going to start off with testimony. I'll ask that you keep your opening remarks to 10 minutes or less, and then we'll go to questions.

First on the list, from the Empire Meat Company, is Mr. Kevin Soady-Easton.

Go ahead, Kevin.

12:35 p.m.

Kevin Soady-Easton Butcher, Empire Meat Company

Thank you very much, Mr. Miller. And thank you very much to the other members here for inviting me, and to the clerk for making this visit to Ottawa very enjoyable.

My name is Kevin Soady-Easton. I was a retail butcher in the town of Durham in the county of Grey. I have been a retail butcher for approximately 31 years. And I ran into problems with OMAFRA and the new regulations it has put into effect, which closed down my shop.

I don't know how to go about this, because this is all new to me. But maybe I should just read a letter to give you some information. This letter is from the West Grey Chamber of Commerce, from the village I worked in. It was sent out to all the chamber members. It's dated March 2, 2009:

Hello Members;

This newsletter is to catch you up on what has been going on “at the office”. Most of you know our Past President Kevin Easton of Empire Meat Co. has been trying to deal with new regulations that have classified his business as a free standing meat processing operation, causing it to fall under new regulations. These new regulations are next to impossible to comply with financially.

Kevin informed me today that he will be holding an auction of his equipment sometime in March, and in a few weeks he and his wife Hazel will be moving to the Grimsby area. We not only lose a good Chamber member, a business and residential taxpayer from our community, but also a volunteer, who has served on a number of committees, during his time as a resident of our community.

Kevin made the decision to close the butcher shop due to receiving a formal letter from OMAFRA Food Inspection Branch dated January 23 2009 quoting the Ontario Regulation 31/05 from the Food Safety and Quality Act 2001. His operation is no longer an allowed practice under the new regulation. The letter continues to say, “that should he continue in producing blood pudding and wholesaling, the business will be in non-compliance, and OMAFRA will take enforcement actions up to and including the laying of charges under the Act and detention of product and equipment”. Further it states that the premises will continue to be subject to the Food Premises Regulation under the Health Protection and Promotion Act and inspectors from the local Health Unit and OMAFRA will be monitoring the business for compliance.

To be perfectly clear, Kevin's shop and all provincially inspected meat facilities are handled through the local health unit, in Empire's case that is the Grey Bruce Health Unit. The Health Unit carries out regular inspections and in no time in the past twelve years have they had any concerns, nor public complaint regarding his shop or operation.

This matter stems from new regulations under the jurisdiction of OMAFRA which do not allow a butcher to cook; smoke (make bacon or ham), or prepare an item (like haggis or blood pudding) in the same room that he has meat. Nor do they allow transport or retail of finished product to other shops. Regardless, if he accepted the new regulation and paid a license fee of $300.00 and then spent upwards of $150,000.00 to do the required upgrade of equipment, he still would not be allowed to make and retail his haggis and blood pudding at his shop, which comprises roughly 30% of his annual business.

OMAFRA does have grant/funding option of up to $25,000.00 for eligible businesses--key words here are eligible and up to--and technical and business assistance is available through the Ontario Independent Meat Processors (OIMP) to assist businesses in transition. Following a thorough review of his situation and upon receiving the latest letter from OMAFRA Kevin made the decision to close rather than go bankrupt.

In recent weeks Kevin has appealed to customers and others to write to the MPP on his behalf to express concerns that forcing businesses to close their doors in difficult economic times is not a good idea for Ontario's rural communities. Some of the people who wrote to our MPP and MP have received a letter from OMAFRA in response, citing the above regulations and the Act that they fall from. The letters also stated the funding available to businesses wishing to continue in business. If anyone would like to see either letter, I have them on file and would gladly share them with you. It seems our Ontario Ministry doesn't have a grasp on the fact that small places have small businesses with a limited number of customers and cannot afford to continue in business with these impractical regulations. It doesn't seem right that businesses that have met former requirements for years, passed inspections and with no public complaints, should be forced to closed, because they can't finance the compliance.

Small abattoirs are closing at an alarming rate (my information is that over 100 have closed recently) apparently due to not being able to finance the new requirements. This has resulted in some farmers butchering animals on the farm, as inspected facilities are not available, and distances to facilities are too great. If this continues our “fresh?” local meat will no longer be available. What impact will these new regulations have on the farm gate sale of meat?

No one seems to be able to ascertain if these new regulations were based on science alone, or were the result of a series of public consultations. No one argues with the proper food safety practices or regular inspections to ensure compliance in any sector of our food industry. Curiously, the serious health issues that have arisen seem to have stemmed from the large packing plants.

Why should this concern us?

Rural Ontario depends heavily on agriculture, and all the businesses and purchasing power that fall from farming activity. Closely linked with Tourism, a very important facet of our economy, here in Grey Bruce anything that affects the very basic industry of agriculture is a threat to our prosperity.

Ironically, in 2008 a partnership of the Counties of Grey and Bruce, Saugeen First Nation, the Municipality of Kincardine and the 100 Mile Market group, working with local producers developed an excellent Culinary and Agricultural Map of Grey and Bruce Counties directing people to locally sourced and grown food, (including meat) stating that the project would enhance local economies and the viability of rural communities. These stringent rules will no doubt affect other small food processors that handle food on a daily basis.

I will be forwarding this letter to MPP Bill Murdoch; MP Larry Miller; OMAFRA; The Ontario Chamber of Commerce; The Counties of Grey and Bruce, the Municipality of West Grey and the Ontario Federation of Agriculture in an effort to bring this matter to their attention.

It's signed Greta Kennedy, Secretary Treasurer, West Grey Chamber of Commerce.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

You have about half a minute left.

I thought I should point out, for any the members who don't know, that OMAFRA is the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs.

You have a few seconds left, unless you want to move on.

12:45 p.m.

Butcher, Empire Meat Company

Kevin Soady-Easton

This may take just a few seconds.

This is from an abattoir owner in our county, Steve Lantz. He couldn't make it today, but he was supposed to come with me. There's a letter, and I won't read it because it will take too long, but I'll cut it down.

In 1995-96 his abattoir was a customs-exempt abattoir, which meant he didn't have to go under certain regulations because he only brought in the farmer's beef, slaughtered it, and then returned it to the farmer. It wasn't sold to the public. At that time there were 350 plants. There are fewer than 175 now, because of OMAFRA.

I'll leave it at that.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Very good, then.

12:45 p.m.

Butcher, Empire Meat Company

Kevin Soady-Easton

Thank you very much for the opportunity to be here.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

You're very welcome. Thanks.

Mr. Louis Roesch, I understand you're in the meat business as well. You have 10 minutes, please.

12:45 p.m.

Louis Roesch Owner, Roesch Meats and More

I'll do the best I can. A lot of what he's saying is exactly where we're at too.

I'm going to start with risk management programs.

Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to appear before you today. We operate in several fields, as farmers, as abattoir processors, caterers, and we also do agri-tourism.

Ontario has put a risk management program into operation for Ontario grain farmers. This was designed by farmers for farmers, to be affordable, bankable, and at a cost of production level, with a premium to be paid that is basically green to the U.S. for trade.

There has also been work on this for the red meat sector. The pork industry needs help immediately. The loss per animal has ranged from $30 to $80 for the last three years. The government has responded with loans, then a stay of default on these loans. Instead of a stay of default on these loans, which simply extends the repayment from APP loans to September 2010, these existing loans should have been forgiven. We could then start with new loans, from now until September 2010, to see where the industry is.

The loan was already a band-aid for a bad situation that needed to be properly addressed, because the lending institutions could not continue to offer support with the constant loss of revenue. So adding another year just makes it four years. I don't think it's going to be any easier to get out of it at that time. This has to be addressed before the House rises, or a significant portion of the estimated 70,000 jobs that the industry contributes to the Canadian economy will not be there when the House returns.

To add to this, the COOL program in the States, the country-of-origin program, and the badly named flu outbreaks that we had--that was not correct in the first place, calling it swine flu--have also dumped our prices by about another 20%.

The federal government has chosen not to work with the Ontario risk management plan, nor to support the hog industry in its per head ask, yet it has decided to support the ethanol industry with a safety net guarantee on a per litre basis. The Chatham ethanol plant was given a safety net guarantee by Prime Minister Stephen Harper, as announced by Dave Van Kesteren, our federal member of Parliament, in April for $72.7 million to guarantee the plant's profitability for the next 10 years. It was set at 10¢ per litre of production, and it comes to them in the form of a grant. How is this different from a per head basis payment for the hog industry?

We as farmers, as the primary producers, are still stuck with programs that don't work for most producers. No offence to the ethanol industry, but we as primary producers have never seen a workable program or relationship with a government that lasted 10 years, with a guarantee of profit from the government. Farmers could set goals and actual directions for such a program. We get three-year programs that take two years to get up and running; or very rarely, we get a five-year program that also takes two years to get rolling. Other hurdles include the qualifications to enrol, paying your fees, and finding out you can't qualify. The funds run out before the fifth year is complete anyway.

With that being said, grain and oilseed prices are down 30% from last year, and all of our input costs are up. I know that was discussed here this morning. Nitrogen production was stopped in Alberta in January, potash in February in Saskatchewan, and it forced our prices to stay at 35% to 45% higher than last year. The commodity prices are now drifting lower. The weak Canadian dollar is positive to Canadian agriculture and it's negative if it's strong. It would make sense to offer AgriFlex funding as a companion program to our risk management plan in Ontario and allow more flexibility to the province to deliver it to us.

By your own studies, it has been proven that every dollar put into primary agriculture at the producer level returns $7 within the fiscal year. There's more than $700 million unspent surplus in the agriculture budget. An immediate $800 million injected into the hog industry would give a return of approximately $6 billion. If you had a better stimulus plan than this, considering the economic downturn and agriculture being the second-largest gross return and employer in Canada, then we need to hear about it. If not, agriculture--in particular, the hog industry at this point--deserves another immediate hard look.

On the labelling, new labelling regulations are worse than we had before. Ninety-eight per cent is a level that's almost impossible to reach if any processing is to take place. For example, using cane sugar, sea salt, or oriental spices changes the ground rules. It now becomes made in Canada, which only requires 2% Canadian content, with no indication of where these food products were grown. Now you have made-in-Canada, and you don't know where it came from, how it's produced, what chemicals, pesticide, or herbicide regulations were in effect, or what the federal inspection standards were in the country of origin. Fewer than 2% of these products will actually be inspected upon entering our country. This, in turn, makes it almost impossible to compete on a level playing field. Our regulations have many banned herbicides and pesticides that cannot be used here. This is an extreme health risk. If not, all the research done here by our government is a huge waste of our tax dollars and these data are completely inaccurate.

If this is correct, the products with these banned substances should not be allowed to be imported into this country, especially with a made-in-Canada label, which tells you nothing about the packaged contents or where it was produced, leaving the consumer totally uninformed, with potentially false or distorted information.

The 85% Canadian content that was put forward by the KFA , OFA , and CFA was fair and accepted by CFIA after many discussions and negotiations. All parties felt it was a great accomplishment, was doable, and would enhance agriculture in Canada. It would give consumers the ability to read clear, easy-to-understand labels, and it would not be misleading. It would allow the consumer to choose a local or Canadian product.

How could 98% Canadian content come about when our negotiators were told that the Canadian content, as presented, would be 85%? We were told it was a done deal. This needs to be acted on immediately for the sake of saving money, jobs, and the further processing of real Canadian agricultural products in this country. This will keep agriculture more profitable, with a tax that stays here and does not end up in a foreign country's pocket.

This has nothing to do with trade barriers or sanctions. We need to be fair to our grassroots producers. How can our consumers believe that they have clean, safe food products under the made-in-Canada label when they have no clue where these products actually came from? This is totally unfair to our consumers. We've all seen and heard plenty of food scares and recalls of tainted products, whether accidental or intentional for profit. The consumers must be able to choose where their products were grown and further processed for consumption.

We cannot compete with other countries' low or non-existent wages and poor labour regulations while our minimum wage continues to increase. There is an unfair imbalance in inspection, food safety, labour laws, production, labelling, and red tape. Our Canadian producers deserve to be able to compete fairly and stay in business. We can compete with the world's best and safest foods if they all have to comply with our regulations.

We're overburdened with regulations and paperwork that create jobs having little to do with food safety. The statement has been made that all processing plants should have one set of regulations. This is an irresponsible statement when you consider the paperwork of a business with two or three employees making and processing 10-kg batches of product at a time compared with metric tonne batches with 500 or more people on the floor. It takes the same amount of time for the employee to do the paperwork, but the economic ratio won't allow payment of a full-time employee for a small business. I'm not saying that we don't need any paperwork; I'm saying that it's unrealistic to expect the same paperwork and compliance from large and small operations.

How many recorded health problems have occurred in small plants? A small operation would not survive a food-related illness such as listeria—we'd be done. As the new regulations have been put forward and enforced, we have gone from 420 active abattoirs to 175 in the past five years. This is mainly in Ontario. A number of the existing 175 are frustrated enough that they want to quit. We can never comply with the regulations, because they are continually changing and our cashflow doesn't allow us to keep up. This, in turn, has turned lending institutions against us, and we cannot sell our operations because it's not affordable to take them over.

We are in a paper war with other potential trade partners who continually raise the paper bar to restrict trade. We go to all the expense of complying with new regulations that are supposed to open the door to exports—only to find out that there is yet another new set of regulations. Those same countries for which you have created a new bureaucracy new paperwork, in the hope of securing export rights, have just changed the rules. Are you in the door yet? The answer is no. How far ahead are you going to look to push this paper war forward while our boy scout mentality continues to put us competitively behind?

Thank you.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you.

Mr. Carl Norg of Carl's Choice Meats.

12:55 p.m.

Carl Norg Micro Meat Processor, Carl's Choice Meats

Just so you all know, I've never met these gentlemen before this afternoon. They're reading off the same book and I don't know why I should speak. I have 10 minutes and I'm going to use all of it, so get ready.

Good afternoon to you all. Thank you for providing me the opportunity to present my concerns before this committee. I stand before you representing the many small meat businesses that are dealing with similar detrimental regulations that limit our competitiveness in the retail sector.

I'm Carl Norg, the owner of Carl's Choice Meats in Brantford. We opened our small family business in 1986. It is approximately 2,400 square feet in size, with 720 square feet used for our store, and approximately 500 square feet used for production. We employ three full-time people besides me. We also have a stall at two farmers' markets.

For the past 22 years we have provided many good, wholesome, and high-quality products to our constantly growing customer base. We have consistently passed the welcome scrutiny of our health units. We are now severely challenged by the new regulations since the inspections have been taken over by the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs.

Today I'd like to speak to you about unfair competition with respect to income and profitability, and therefore the eventual demise of the local country butcher shop. In my remarks today I'd like to cover two areas of concern. One is the unnecessary paper burden required to complete the work day. Two is structural requirements needed to meet new regulations.

Large companies with 10 employees or more need written procedures to ensure that all employees are able to follow the same guidelines. This method of communication is essential when the number of employees exceeds the ability to communicate with them easily. These protocols are also in place so that when an inspector arrives to do their job they have a way of confirming that everyone is doing what is necessary to meet a consistent standard.

The joy of owning and managing a small meat shop such as ours comes from the variety of work that takes place each day. Though each week resembles the week before, small companies must be ready to make quick adjustments resulting from changes in customer flow, product availability, holiday demands, and even what we have in stock. Because we are customer focused, what we plan to do each day largely depends on the needs of our customers. In a small business, the owner generally sets the standard and sees to it that the employees meet those requirements. If the standards are low, the customer flow will likely diminish, while a business with high standards is more likely to keep the customers happy and healthy, in the case of the meat business.

Adherence to strict and unreasonable protocols is burdensome, difficult, and a waste of precious employee time. The reason for writing protocols is to follow them. In a small business such as ours, working with them is cumbersome and inefficient, which therefore makes them subject to misuse. Most of us have been in business long enough to know how to get the flavourful and safe results we wish to achieve, and the process by which to get there.

With written protocols also come checklists to be filled out each time a task is completed. As with written protocols, in a small meat operation there is very little sense in doing all the checklists that are required--again because of man hours. The multiple checklists alone, which are to be filled out each time a task is completed, interrupt the flow of work in a small business. Inefficiency equals loss in production and decreased revenue. Because of the ease with which this can be manipulated to fool the inspection system, experts at deception are created rather than master butchers. Currently most of us spend a good part of a 40-hour work week completing all the required paperwork. If the paperwork is easy to manipulate--and it is--or if it isn’t completed properly, why bother doing it at all?

The paper burden puts a severe strain on the budget because people need to be paid for these hours. This in turn necessitates an increase in our prices, decreases our available revenue, and reduces our competitiveness in the marketplace. This means less profit and subsequently less flexibility to make changes to improve our facility, hire new help, or increase the wages of our present employees. The current reality is that if a family-run meat business is no longer profitable and unable to support raising a family, it will cause the local country butcher shops to cease existing.

We need to convince our industry that we can be cleaner, safer, and healthier in the meat products we process and produce. This is not done by adding or redirecting employee time with the burden of more paperwork. The government has already realized that with their own paper burden reduction initiative, launched in 2005.

How to resolve this problem: I am convinced the best way to resolve this issue without unduly burdening the small meat business owners with wasted costly paid hours, while still satisfying the intent of the government for food safety, is best done by sampling of services and products. Inspectors should have the jurisdiction to arrive unannounced on any day to take samples of products and swab the surfaces at random. If samples returned clean, there would be no issue. But if one or more tests came back with unfavourable results beyond acceptable ratios, then corrective measures would have to be taken. If too many positive or problem samples were returned with an unacceptable test result, or if this were a occurring problem, then a fine, restricted production, or loss of licence grade could be the result. Licence results could be posted, so the consumer would be informed and therefore be able to make their own decision as to whether to continue to purchase their products at that store or to find another location to supply their needs.

Number two, structural requirements needed to meet new regulations: As stated previously, our building at Carl's Choice Meats is approximately 2,400 square feet, with approximately 500 square feet of production space. We are a small business with room enough to employ a maximum of five or six people. Because we are a small country butcher shop, our busiest time is the weekends at market. We do not have enough customer traffic flow during the week to hire a full-time sales clerk. Customers are seldom lined up to be served, but rather, drop by sporadically throughout the day. This means that there is no need for someone to be present behind the service counter on a constant basis.

When customers do come in, someone leaves the cutting production area to serve them. Now, there's a problem, as the person who has served the customer may now not re-enter the production area without a complete change of head covering, protective coat, and sanitized foot gear. The new regulations also state that we must have a separate room for our fresh cutting area, a separate room for our ready-to-eat production, a specific and separate area to keep our spices and plastic bags, and a passageway that encloses and separates these areas from the store.

Because of our small size, we do not have a designated receiving area. Our receiving area is a common area through which we enter the building, enter a cooler, and it's also a walkway from the cutting room to the cooler or to the store, machine room, or the smokehouse area. In order to meet regulations, we must separate these areas completely. This would entail a reconfiguration of our building to accommodate the perceived requirements and would cost in the neighbourhood of $300,000.

We had a consultant and an engineer assess what was needed to satisfy these regulations and draw up plans. They quoted $300,000. All these changes were within the present structure with no additional square footage added. We see nothing wrong with that kind of spending of money if a business plan were to show that it would be financially feasible. Unfortunately, all business plans showed it would not create any more profits or business to pay off the loan needed to fund such a project.

The other consideration would be that if we were to create more rooms or areas, these little crowded spaces would see little constant use. Rooms with low traffic flow have a tendency not to be maintained as well as rooms that see more work. This then would lead to a less sanitary condition and so become hazardous rather than healthful. In an open concept work environment, not only is everyone safer but also cleanup is frequent and sanitation is much easier and timely to accomplish.

As stated previously, $300,000 is an unacceptable cost to our business, because this is a cost that cannot be recovered.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Mr. Norg, one minute left.

1:05 p.m.

Micro Meat Processor, Carl's Choice Meats

Carl Norg

We might get there.

The decision we're wrestling with currently, even though we enjoy our work and had hoped to pass it on to our son, is either to change the nature of our business or simply close it altogether. If this happens, there would be one less butcher shop on the map. To close our butcher shop would mean four full-time and six part-time employees would be unemployed. Ten families would be affected, and although this number may be considered small, please remember that I speak not only for our own family business but many others in the province.

In conversation with other small meat shop owners who are in the same predicament as we are, their thoughts are the same. If there's no return to their investment, there's no money to invest in costly regulations.

To summarize, I have presented you with two main issues that restrict us as small butcher shops and, consequently, our competitiveness with large meat plants in the grocery chains: first, the unnecessary paper burden that eats away at our time and therefore our profitability, and secondly, the structural criteria that require a large capital expense that we will never recoup.

Yes, we need to have appropriate risk management regulations. Canadians have every right to trust in the safety of the food they eat. However, the regulations need to be outcome-based and not process-driven, and not something that can be easily manipulated to fool the inspection system.

Please take into consideration the financial plight of the hundreds of small and culturally diverse meat shops in this province and help us to pass them down to the next generation.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you very much, gentlemen. We'll now open it up to questions.

Mr. Eyking, you have seven minutes.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, guests, for coming here.

Is five minutes okay?