Agriculture Committee on Oct. 4th, 2018

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Absolutely.

Could you comment on some recent changes to succession planning due to changes in estate and tax law? Has that been your experience with the stress on farmers, the mental health of farmers, over the past year or so? Mr. Hacault, feel free to pipe in here as well.

[Mary Ann Doré]

That would be hard to say, because I haven't completed my succession plan on our own farm. I know that it causes some concerns for people, but I couldn't say if it's positive or negative.

[Marcel Hacault]

My dad just passed away. I was the executor and we were trying to go through the estate. He thought he had planned it really well in forming a corporation, etc. I can tell you that you need a pretty high-priced accountant to help you navigate all that and understand exactly what your options are. It's not easy.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Did the recent tax changes have an effect on that?

[Marcel Hacault]

Oh, definitely. There was a heated discussion within our family as to how exactly we were going to maintain that fairness. It's not equal but it has to be fair.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

Now we go to Mr. Peschisolido, for six minutes.

[Joe Peschisolido, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

Madam Doré and Mr. Hacault, thank you for your presentations. I must say they were very thorough. You brought up many points, and I would like to highlight a few of them.

Mr. Hacault, you started by talking about the different degrees of mental health challenges in the various industries: hogs, poultry, dairy. Can you talk a little about that and maybe explain why you believe there are differences, and what we can do to be helpful, as a federal government and as a society?

[Marcel Hacault]

That's an interesting question. I was listening to a previous meeting, and I think the same question was asked: whether supply-managed commodities seem to have less stress than open-market commodities. When I was farming, I had hogs and my neighbours all had supply management. I don't know if we were less stressed or not. I know that, because I was a hog farmer, I had to deal with much more volatility in my pricing. But there were also some pretty good years that my supply management neighbours didn't have.

As a general rule, I would say that, if you're a top performer, supply management offers a bit of income stability that the other, more open markets wouldn't have. One of the stressors is always price volatility, so I would assume that it would have less stress. Part of the challenge is that if you're looking to grow the farm, it is much more difficult within a supply-managed industry than in another industry where, if you have the capital and the business plan, you just make it happen.

I can't really answer your question as well as I would like to.

[Joe Peschisolido, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Hacault, you answered it very well.

Along the same lines, Madam Doré, you said that one of the issues of stress for farmers is the health of animals. Can you elaborate a bit on that?

[Mary Ann Doré]

Yes. A fact we talk about often is that no matter how well your day starts, nothing instantly deflates the group like a down cow. A down cow is a cow that is either sick or has fallen and hurt itself.

On Monday, for example, I came back after a weekend off. We came in at five in the morning, and a cow that my brother thought was getting better had passed away overnight. You're thinking, “That's awful. Okay, move on.” Then, my brother and husband went into the barn to get the cows ready for me to milk, and one of my dad's favourite cows had fallen and was stuck. We needed to lift her and put her into the thing. That was two big things in the first 10 minutes in the morning. It's really hard. We're building a new barn and it's all very exciting and things are going well, but it just sort of deflates us.

We're very proud of and base a lot of our success on the success of our animals. We take it very personally that we've let them down when they're hurt. That's also why we get so upset about social media attacks. I recently left Twitter. I'd talk about NAFTA and things, and I just needed to step away from the Twitter world because we weren't accomplishing anything arguing about it online.

I think that, while we need to have a dialogue with the people who aren't from farms, it's a lot of responsibility for me, on top of all the other things I do, to have to be an “agvocate”, as they call it, and defend myself. That's very tiring.

[Joe Peschisolido, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

You also talked about the importance of 4-H clubs. Can you talk a bit about that?

[Mary Ann Doré]

Yes, 4-H is something I've been involved with my whole life, and my brother and my dad are still members. It's a great organization to teach kids confidence, public speaking, and a whole variety of topics. I think it's a great way to fit mental health into all the subjects, because they can just add it into the dialogue. Youth suicide is also a very scary topic. If you can just teach kids more about acceptance and understanding their emotions in a very social aspect, I think that's another great way to reach people at a young age.

[Joe Peschisolido, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Hacault, at the beginning you talked a bit about the interaction of farmers in the one-on-one versus the group setting. Can you elaborate a bit on that?

[Marcel Hacault]

When we asked farmers, if they were to go out and get help, how they would like to see it, it was very definitely one-on-one. They felt, at that time anyway, that it was the preferred method, and I think that still remains. Whether or not it's one-on-one remotely, they want a caseworker who understands agriculture and who knows what they're going through.

Just to go back a bit to some of the previous comments, I think what might be missing is that when there are animal husbandry issues and we get the SPCA or CFIA in, it might be nice to have somebody in our corner, especially if someone is suffering from mental health stress. Having an advocate in our corner to help us manage those people would be great, because generally if there's an issue with animal husbandry, I don't think it's done on purpose; it's done because there are underlying factors.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

You have a few seconds left.

[Joe Peschisolido, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

That's okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Peschisolido.

Now we go to Mr. MacGregor for six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Hacault, I'll start with you. It's very good to have you here as a witness, with your goal of reducing accidents on the farm to zero. I was just wondering if you could put into the record for us the link between mental health and accidents. Farming accidents can be very brutal and can lead to mental trauma later on, but also, if a farmer's mental health isn't really at 100%, can that lead to more accidents? We've seen the link between mental health and productivity. Is there anything you want to add in relation to that specific topic?

[Marcel Hacault]

Anecdotally, we say there's a link between mental health and injuries, but I don't think there's actually research proving it. It would be nice to have some research to actually see how close the link is and what the causal factors are, so if you were to do some interventions you would know when to do them. When you're tired, you're more likely to make a mistake, and I know they've shown that if you work long hours, it's equivalent to your being impaired. We know there are some impairment issues with lack of sleep, and if you're impaired you're more likely to get hurt.

To have some actual research that might demonstrate some of the links, and even to capture the data related to fatalities by suicide, would be interesting so we could develop proactive mechanisms to prevent that.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

You've heard Dr. Jones-Bitton's testimony before this committee. She had three recommendations: supporting a Canadian network for farmer mental health, a federal funding stream for farmer mental health research, and evidence-based training programs for agriculture. Those are some things you can definitely get behind.

[Marcel Hacault]

We've been lucky enough in the past to have part of our funding from Agriculture and Agri-Food. Our proposal is currently going through the steps. Having talked to Do More Ag and Dr. Jones-Bitton, we've actually proposed the development of some resources for young families in agriculture. Do More Ag is doing probably more of the general, and Andria is doing some other stuff.

We thought, a bit like what you're saying, that for a young family struggling with multi-generational conflicts sometimes in the home, with young children and an enormous debt load, trying to get everything going, if there's anything like a break in the link or an added stress, or a child who maybe needs some extra support, there's really nothing there right now. If it is there, they have to run to the city and it might be four hours away. So really, the solutions are not there. We're looking at developing some resources for those young families in agriculture.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Doré, you come from a supply-managed farming operation—seventh generation, I believe you said. I've toured dairy farms within my own riding, and it's been a fantastic experience.

I think one of the strengths of our supply-managed system is that every farmer says there's a level of certainty. They generally know what their income is going to be, and that allows them to do some long-term planning. Some of the capital investments they've made in their operations.... They are quite slick. It's quite amazing. They've opened up their farms to the public so we can all see how they're run, and it's really quite enlightening.

You talked about some of the stressors for farmers. When you look at it in the context of some of the recent trade agreements we've signed—CETA, CPTPP, and now the USMCA—supply-managed farmers have constantly been told that the government is there to support supply management. However, every time we're hiving off a certain percentage, you're losing that kind of certainty.

I'm wondering, because we heard from witnesses on Tuesday on this subject, how that relates to mental health. What does that do to the level of certainty within the industry?

[Mary Ann Doré]

It's very stressful.

I decided, with my husband, that if this trade agreement resulted in the loss of supply management, I was going to exit the industry. I was not interested in working that hard for consumers who didn't care to support us. I was ready to leave.

The reason I found supply management industry so attractive to join is that there's a stabilization and we can make investments. There's a joke that bankers really like dairy farmers and chicken farmers because they know that we can pay back that loan. My pig farmer friend complains about us, because he cannot get as big a loan as I can for the same project. The banks understand that I have a steady paycheque. Sometimes it's not as big as his paycheques, but it's always the same. I really like the attraction of one steady thing in all of the other crazy crops. We do a lot of crops as well, and it's nice to have the support of supply management.

I'm glad it's still there, but I feel like every time we grow as an industry, we give away a percentage with every trade agreement.

I can't blame this government for its trade deal, because that was an impossible situation to be put in. I don't begrudge that, but at the same time it's very disheartening to have all of your advancements given away.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

The percentages seem small, but they represent thousands of people.

Thank you.