Evidence of meeting #109 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was farmers.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jennifer MacTavish  General Manager, Ontario Sheep Farmers
Rebecca Lee  Executive Director, Canadian Horticultural Council
Elizabeth Connery  Chair, Labour Committee, Canadian Horticultural Council
Marcel Hacault  Executive Director, Canadian Agricultural Safety Association
Mary Ann Doré  Team Leader, Online Services, Ag Women's Network

9:25 a.m.

General Manager, Ontario Sheep Farmers

Jennifer MacTavish

We've taken money out of our research funding to support Dr. Jones-Bitton's work, and we are providing a lot of in-kind time to help her build her central hub at the University of Guelph.

I'll be honest. In the beginning, it was hard to find the funding, because farmers like to put research dollars into researching production and cost-effective ways of increasing production while maintaining their level of productivity. That was kind of redundant. I apologize.

The long and the short of it is that it's hard for us to find funding.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Eva Nassif Liberal Vimy, QC

Ms. Connery, please go ahead.

9:25 a.m.

Chair, Labour Committee, Canadian Horticultural Council

Elizabeth Connery

The same is also true for us.

We do not have a line item that says “mental health”. It is something we deal with through our labour committee and on a volunteer basis. We talk with people. We try to make sure it's an item that is out there in front of our members, to make sure they're thinking about themselves and trying to do self-care and to be aware.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Eva Nassif Liberal Vimy, QC

How do you operate if you don't have any funding?

9:25 a.m.

Chair, Labour Committee, Canadian Horticultural Council

Elizabeth Connery

With great difficulty....

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Eva Nassif Liberal Vimy, QC

I have a question regarding women.

Given the participation of women in the agricultural sector, has the way that you deal with stress changed on either farms or on the administrative boards of your associations? Has the amount of stress changed?

9:25 a.m.

General Manager, Ontario Sheep Farmers

Jennifer MacTavish

I'll start.

I work with an 11-person board, and four of our board members are women under the age of 45. We did a master shepherd's course for farmers who had been farming sheep for three to nine years, and 60% of the participants were women. By far, it's changing the way we are functioning as a board.

I got the card. Sorry, I should have wrapped it up.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

It's okay.

Thank you, Ms. Nassif.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Eva Nassif Liberal Vimy, QC

Thank you.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Unfortunately, this is all the time we have. We have a shortened committee this morning.

Ms. MacTavish, I really appreciate your talking about maybe getting some training for some of the people who go on the farm. I thought that was a neat idea. It's not to become psychologists, but at least to be able to engage in a conversation on that subject.

Ms. Connery, please accept all our condolences for your loss, and thank you for being here with us today.

Ms. Lee, thank you for all the hard work that you and your organization do. Thank you for being here.

We shall break quickly and get the next panel.

9:34 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Thank you. We'll get under way with our second hour.

I want to welcome Marcel Hacault.

Monsieur Hacault is the executive director of the Canadian Agricultural Safety Association.

From the Ag Women's Network, we have Mary Ann Doré, team leader, online services.

Welcome, both of you, to our study on mental health for Canadian farmers.

We will start with a six-minute opening statement.

Mr. Hacault, you have the floor.

9:35 a.m.

Marcel Hacault Executive Director, Canadian Agricultural Safety Association

I'd like to thank the committee for allowing me to speak here today.

I will give a bit of background on who Marcel Hacault is. I'm starting to feel long in the tooth now. I was a hog farmer until 2004, so I've experienced all the ups and downs in the industry. I was also involved with Keystone Ag Producers in 1996 during the flood. They had tasked me to work with some of the groups there. I've had some personal, one-on-one experience with stressors in agriculture, in terms of both how they impact people and how they impact me and my family.

I'm currently the executive director of the Canadian Agricultural Safety Association. CASA's vision is to have a Canada where no one is hurt farming. Our mission is to make agriculture a safe and healthy environment to work and live in by helping producers and community partners see and manage risk. The mission is very much acknowledging that farmers work and live in the same place, and also that agriculture is more than just the producers. There's the community around them and all the people they interact with.

CASA has been around for a while. When I first came on in 2004, we commissioned a survey that was one of the first ones out there. At that time, it was a stress survey just to try to understand what the levels were, what the primary causes were, and whom farmers would turn to in times of stress. I have the link to it in the notes.

At that time, one in five described themselves as very stressed, and half said they were somewhat stressed. It almost mirrors what Dr. Andria Jones-Bitton has reported. In 2004, the primary causes were poor harvest and production, government policies and farm finances. Fourteen years later, I think those three are still pretty well at the top of the list. The farmers preferred to meet one-on-one, as opposed to group sessions or using telephone help.

In 2006, La Coop fédérée had a survey among its members. It showed that 50% of ag producers had a high level of stress. Again, that was very similar. The highest levels were for the pork producers, at 66%, with 48% for dairy and 36% for poultry. That's in comparison to 20% of Quebeckers who felt stress in general, so the ag population was definitely feeling higher levels of stress in 2006.

Just last year, we commissioned a study about the types of insurance, because employees often have access to employee assistance programs where they can access specialists and stuff. We thought, wouldn't it be nice if farmers had the same level of support through some type of insurance plan? We found that most farmers have access, if they want, to the health portion. Where there's a real deficiency is in terms of proper disability coverage, and there is an almost non-existent ability to access mental health insurance.

Having said all that, what has changed from 2004 to 2018? I think we've always known that farmers.... It's different from other industries. Most farmers see it as a vocation. There are long hours and unpredictable weather and crops, but they've always believed that the general public acknowledged and respected the industry. I think that has changed. The farmers feel scrutinized and attacked by the public—in essence, devaluing the profession.

We always talk about those bad apples. One of the things that have come up is that sometimes we see in the news husbandry issues where farmers are mistreating their animals. Dr. Andria Jones-Bitton would probably make a link there because it's often stress-related. As an industry—and I may be guilty of this, too—we often say that it's just a bad apple, when we should be saying that this farmer needs help. Where are we helping him through this time? The symptom is what everybody sees, but I think the underlying cause is probably that he needed help.

What's changed? Compared to 15 years ago, farmers today seem to be much more willing to talk about stressors and discuss the impact of those stressors on their mental health. That's why I'm pleased to be here today.

In 2005, we made some recommendations to the Senate Standing Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology regarding mental health. As a result of that, the Mental Health Commission of Canada was formed. The first mandate focused on how best to help people who are homeless and living with mental problems. I would suggest that there might be room to expand that mandate so they could focus a little on rural, remote and farmers.

One thing we would like to see is the development of a national strategy that would focus on farmer and rancher mental health so that we could coordinate and share resources and know what's happening across Canada.

There should be support for a national stress and suicide prevention service. We used to talk about a stress line, but I think we should have a service.

There should be mental health research support, trying to get research linking mental health and wellness to human health and safety, and animal welfare outcomes. There are some technicalities there with ICD-10 codes that could be mandated so we could track some of them more easily.

There should also be evidence-based mental health resources tailored to meet the needs of farmers in terms of both content and delivery.

I think the Government of Canada has a critical role in supporting farmers and ranchers with its messaging. I often hear the message that farmers grow so much and that we're going to be exporting, exporting, exporting. Very seldom do you hear that we value the work that farmers, their families and their workers do every day.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Thank you, Mr. Hacault. Sorry, we're out of time.

Ms. Doré, you have six minutes.

9:40 a.m.

Mary Ann Doré Team Leader, Online Services, Ag Women's Network

Thank you.

My name is Mary Ann Doré. I'm a seventh-generation dairy farmer, originally from Brampton, just outside Toronto. Because of urban encroachment, my husband and I moved to New Dundee in 2010. We moved the cows and joined a partnership with my brother and my parents. I met my husband when I was in high school, and he lived in Montreal. He had never seen a cow before we started dating.

I wrote an article with my husband about our story, with his anxiety and depression in 2017. That was the first time we spoke publicly about it. Looking back now, we're better educated on mental health, and we can see a lot of early signs and symptoms that we were not equipped to notice or discuss at the time.

Things that cause me stress are animal health, working with family—that can be the best and the worst part of my job—trying to find time for my daughter when we work from 5:00 a.m. to 6:30 p.m. and trying to find time for ourselves as we keep waiting for things to slow down. We have a hard time scheduling time for ourselves. Financial stress, changes in the market, social media attacks on our industry and the weather are all things out of my control, but they affect me directly.

All of these things also affect my husband, but he also has a history of mental health problems in his family, and his parents divorced when he was young. He moved around a lot and had a lot of financial stress on him as a young person. He did not grow up in agriculture, so he has had a steep learning curve. All of these additional pressures affect his resilience in ways that we did not understand until after we went through a crisis.

After our article was put on the Ag Women's Network website, many people approached us with their own stories about their own struggles. This led to us being invited to speak on a panel with Andria Jones-Bitton about mental health. After that, we joined her working group, which is a workshop of different farmers, industry people and mental health workers, to work on her program. I have been blown away by the number of people who are willing to talk about this once taboo subject and the thirst there is in this industry to finally do something about it.

I am here today on behalf of the Ag Women's Network, which is a five-year-old volunteer-run program that I have been involved with for the past four years. The group is mostly online, with topics including mental health, industry advancement, personal development, unconscious bias, balancing work and family, rural day care and producer profiles. We're starting our second year of a mentorship program.

Our motto is “Cultivating and connecting leaders for a strong agricultural sector”. We have a website with blogs. Our closed Facebook group has over 2,200 members, and our open group for men and women has over 2,400 members. Anytime the topic of mental health comes up, we are always blown away by the positive outpouring of support. It is something that has touched everyone's lives.

From all of our conversations with AWN, conversations with Andria Jones-Bitton's working group through the University of Guelph, and conversations with industry friends and strangers alike, we know there is a strong need for a farmer-specific mental health outreach program. Farmers need something specific to farmers to feel comfortable reaching out. Being understood is very important when you finally make that big step to contact someone when you are in crisis.

There is a strong desire for a national resource that all members of agriculture and their support network can easily access. Having one national resource would avoid duplication and maximize resources. It needs to be simple, and it needs to be readily accessible if you have any hope of people knowing about it and feeling comfortable using the service. A national service would need to be open to everyone involved in agriculture and their support networks as well.

Following closely behind the need to help people in crisis is the need to support their support person. I speak from experience, and I have heard many personal stories of support people feeling overwhelmed and emotionally exhausted from trying to shield the person in crisis from anything that would upset them. In a farm setting, that means taking on more work and more duties around the farm and family to relieve the person in crisis from more stress. It is exhausting, especially when you are stressed yourself.

My hope is that the national service will be so commonplace and available—like telehealth—that they would feel comfortable reaching out before they're in crisis, and their support network could use the resources as well.

Farming is often a solitary job. It could be a nutritionist or a veterinarian who would be your first point of contact to discuss your mental health. They need to know what to do. Groups like 4-H Canada would benefit from teaching leaders the signs and symptoms of mental health crises, and training industry sales teams and veterinarians would go a long way toward sharing information and increasing awareness of those in need. The industry needs to have knowledge of the signs and symptoms of a person struggling and the next steps that should be taken to link that person to the resources they need.

The time has come for us to address mental health as a health concern. Everyone knows someone who has cancer and wouldn't dream of belittling them for reaching out for help, counselling or medicine. The same needs to be said for mental health.

Thank you so much for your interest in agriculture and mental health. This is a topic very dear to my heart.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Thank you very much, Ms. Doré.

Mr. Lloyd, go ahead for six minutes.

October 4th, 2018 / 9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Thank you so much for coming today. I'm always interested to hear stories. I represent a very agriculture-intensive riding. I had some cousins who were in the dairy industry. Unfortunately, we have only a couple of hog operations left outside of Edmonton.

You said there are a lot of things you can't control. You can't control the weather or prices. There's a lot of volatility in the industry. However, at this committee today, and in our capacity as federal members of Parliament, we do have some things we can control.

The area I would like to focus my questions on is the Canadian Food Inspection Agency and the problems that sometimes arise with CFIA and create unnecessary stress for our farmers. I can think of some particular cases in my area regarding sometimes negligent activity by CFIA.

I guess I'll direct this to Mr. Hacault. Should the CFIA be able to use, as a shield against any remediation for its negligence, the fact that crop insurance has been paid out?

9:45 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Agricultural Safety Association

Marcel Hacault

I'm going to have to decline answering that, because I've been out of the industry so long. I'm sure if you talked to the Canadian Horticultural Council, they would be able to answer it. I apologize.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

No problem.

Do you have any experience or stories about dealing with CFIA, and any recommendations on how you think it can be better, to improve the mental health of farmers?

9:45 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Agricultural Safety Association

Marcel Hacault

I won't have recommendations for CFIA, but when I was a hog farmer, all the programs out there that were supposed to help me weather the financial storms weren't bankable, and that was a tough one for me. I don't think that's changed. It would have been a lot easier for me at the time if those programs were bankable. Then I would've been able to approach my lender and say that we know this is coming. It's going to take its sweet time, but we know it's coming. I know this would have helped me way back when. I imagine it's very similar today, still.

With respect to CFIA, I'm sorry.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

No, that's fine. Thank you.

Madam Doré, would you have any insight on that, from your perspective?

9:45 a.m.

Team Leader, Online Services, Ag Women's Network

Mary Ann Doré

I would say that it's often a scary time when you're involved with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency or the SPCA. Someone like that coming in means that someone has found fault with you, or someone from the public has falsely accused you of something.

However, I think we all need to step back and realize that we're all on the same page and that we have the same intent as all of the CFIA workers. We all want the same thing. Just communicating and not vilifying each other.... We all want the same thing, and we just need communication to share that we're all on the same page.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Recently, a judge ruled that the Canada Revenue Agency, the CRA, has a duty of care to taxpayers. Do you believe it would be a positive thing for farmers' mental health if we were to legislate that the Canadian Food Inspection Agency also has a duty of care to farmers?

9:50 a.m.

Team Leader, Online Services, Ag Women's Network

Mary Ann Doré

For sure. I think it's helpful for everyone to have a mandate of care. It's always a positive thing.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Excellent.

One thing, especially with you, Madam Doré, is the importance of family and family farms. We're seeing a lot of tax changes with estate planning and things like that. Also, a previous witness said that her husband was dealing with depression and died of depression because a brother had passed away six months earlier. Having family who are in the farm industry myself, it just seems to me that in some cases having your children, grandchildren, brothers and sisters involved with the operation seems to help a lot with mental health on the farm.

Could you comment on what you think some of the positives and then maybe some of the negatives of the family farm model are for the mental health of farmers?

9:50 a.m.

Team Leader, Online Services, Ag Women's Network

Mary Ann Doré

I'd say it's very helpful, as long as you have a helpful family.

One of the biggest topics that come up that needs to be looked at alongside mental health is succession planning. There are so many different models of farm businesses, whether they're a joint venture or incorporated. There are lots of different tax implications with those things.

Yes, I think it's good to have family around, because you have someone else watching who knows you and might notice if you're acting differently. I think it's helpful that way, but because you can't leave your family, you can't avoid them sometimes when you're—