Agriculture Committee on May 25th, 2021

[David Duval]

The first thing that comes to mind is that this family gave up farming. The family members experienced a tremendous amount of stress. They received constant insults on social media. It was very hard for them. The mother suffered from depression. They gave up hog farming recently, a few weeks ago, because it was too difficult for them.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

It's appalling when things end this way.

Thank you, Mr. Duval.

I would now like to turn to the representatives of the Canadian Pork Council, Mr. Roy and Mr. Bergmann.

Does the current version of Bill C-205 meet your expectations? Does the additional protection provided by the bill satisfy all pork producers in Canada?

[René Roy]

It will surely provide additional protection, not only for animals, but also for people who work with animals, meaning producers, farmers and consumers. The biosecurity risks are extensive. It's a standard health issue. It can affect every part of the chain.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Roy.

I now want to ask Dr. Vaillancourt a question.

Dr. Vaillancourt, you said at the start that it wasn't necessary to come into contact with animals for contamination to occur. We didn't hear quite the same thing from some of the witnesses who spoke before you.

I want you to elaborate a bit on the issue of contact with animals. I've been a producer my whole life. I know that you don't need to come into direct contact with animals for contamination to occur. However, I'd like to hear you say this to the committee.

[Dr. Jean-Pierre Vaillancourt]

That's right. I'm a biosecurity specialist. I've been conducting research for 30 years in this field. I've consulted in 31 countries. I also work for a French agency as an expert on African swine fever. As you know, this virus recently hit Belgium.

African swine fever is a good example. Suppose a wild animal infected with African swine fever dies in April and you walk on the ground contaminated by its carcass in May. If you enter a pig farm without being careful, you have a fairly high chance of transmitting the pathogen to the farm.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Vaillancourt and Mr. Lehoux.

Now we have Mr. Blois for six minutes.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for their testimony today.

My first question is for Mr. Duval.

Mr. Duval, I want to start by apologizing, because my French isn't very good.

You referred to the protests taking place on farms in Quebec. Some federal and provincial members and ministers, as well as other stakeholders, were looking for a solution to this problem.

Where was the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, or RCMP?

Wasn't it possible to ask the police to take action?

[David Duval]

No, it wasn't possible. First, I just want to say that the people acted properly. When they discovered protesters on their farm staging a sit-in, the farmers immediately called the police station. They stayed calm, returned home, and had their employees monitor the protesters to make sure that no one was hurting the animals.

When the police arrived, there wasn't any law that enabled them to remove the protesters from the farm. The police waited until a magistrate told them that they were supposed to remove the protesters and then the appropriate next steps would be determined. The police removed the protesters one by one. It took seven hours to remove all the protesters from the farm. The animals hadn't been fed all morning as a result of the sit-in, and they were screaming from hunger.

It was mostly the municipal police, or the Sûreté du Québec, the provincial police, who handled the situation. There weren't any regulations or laws that enabled the police to remove these people.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you.

Can you provide details to this committee? I'd be particularly interested, because some of the arguments we've been hearing at this committee are about some of the existing laws and the fact that farmers sometimes don't ask police to take that on.

Can you provide any evidence to the committee on this particular situation and others that might exist in Quebec?

I'll take that as a yes.

[David Duval]

I'll try to answer your question.

The first thing that we tell producers in the event of a break-in on their farm is to stay calm. There have been other break-ins besides the one that I referred to, by the way. Recently, there was a break-in on a dairy farm, where people tried to free the animals and remove them from the farm.

Producers are sometimes hot-headed, which can escalate the situation. That's why we ask them to stay calm, get out and call the police station. We say the same thing to people who witness acts against animals—

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Duval.

[David Duval]

This is important to us, since laws exist to deal with these acts.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

My apologies. I have to keep moving on. I'd be particularly interested in seeing the evidence around police not having the ability to intervene or feeling like they couldn't intervene. I think that's really relevant to this study, so thank you.

Mr. Bergmann, I'll turn to you and Mr. Roy.

Mr. Roy talked about deterrents. When we look at what Mr. Barlow has brought forward, and I think it's laudable in intent, my concern is that when I look at the proposed legislation, it really puts an onus that there had to be an intent to breach the biosecurity element on a farm.

Have you had individuals come on your farm? Did they have any awareness about the Criminal Code, or other types of legislation, that is trying to restrict this type of activity beyond biosecurity?

Can you speak to that?

[Rick Bergmann]

First of all, we all have expectations of protecting our families and properties. As a matter of fact, maybe in some of the offices that you're sitting in right now, or in your home, there is security to prevent people from coming in. When they come in, that's a wrong thing.

Why not agriculture? First and foremost, that's really my question, why not agriculture? Bill C-205 is a very common-sense bill.

To your question about people coming onto our farm, unwelcomed and unannounced—

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Bergmann, I'm not disagreeing. I know that you as a pork farmer, and many others across the country, are doing incredible work on animal safety. That is not in question, I don't think, with the members of this committee.

What I have concerns about is that when I look at this particular piece of legislation, there is an onus that there has to be an intent to breach the biosecurity elements. I don't own a farm, and I haven't been privy to a sit-in from a particular group of protestors or activists who have concerns.

My concern is that activists could be mindful of the biosecurity element and sit-in, or really argue in front of any type of court that the intent, reckless or otherwise, was not there. It's about the teeth of this particular legislation.

I don't know if Mr. Roy wants to elaborate on that. Do you see any concerns there?

[René Roy]

We have a protocol to enter a farm. I don't see anybody, who is not aware of this protocol, being able to respect it. There is no way, because there is a list of things to do, and they are entering without our permission. That is the first breach of biosecurity. After that, it's following one after the other, and the risk is really high.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Blois.

Mr. Perron, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for joining us this afternoon.

Mr. Duval, I want to give you the opportunity to finish your answer to Mr. Blois' question about why the police didn't really have the authority to intervene.

Can you provide other examples? Why did the operation take seven hours? It seems that a major loophole in the law must be addressed.

[David Duval]

Basically, there's indeed a loophole.

When the police arrived on the scene, they wondered on what charge they could remove the protesters and still follow the law. They can't remove someone from a house if the law doesn't give them the authority to do so. There was absolutely nothing that they could do to get the protesters out.

Fortunately, the protesters ended up deciding to leave, since they had already been in the building for seven or eight hours. If they had wanted to stay there, they could have done so, since nothing was stopping them.

Nothing in the current legislation is adapted to the agriculture sector.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you.

You spoke about the mental health aspect. In particular, you said that people have given up farming, which is quite terrible.

In addition, as a result of a break-in, there were reportedly cases of livestock diseases, and water was allegedly poured into a fuel tank.

Can you talk about these aspects and the difficulty of establishing the causal link, in terms of the evidence, between the break-in and the aftermath?

[David Duval]

This isn't an easy task. We're advised to take civil action against the trespassers. First, the producer must be willing to take the case to court. They'll need to deal with all kinds of emotions. They'll need to find evidence to determine who among the 15 protesters brought in the disease. Will the entire group pay for the damage?

The family in question lost tens of thousands of dollars in a few weeks because deaths occurred as soon as the trespassers entered the farm. At the time of the break-in, the animals were expecting to be fed, but they weren't fed. The mothers got up, lay down again, got up again, and then crushed their young. Who will pay for this? The next step is to show evidence in court. These farmers currently have no defence options backed by legislation. They must defend themselves, and that's very difficult.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I fully understand the burden on producers.

What do you tell people who say that, if this legislation is passed, there will be no more whistleblowers and that there must be some freedom to report abuse.

Can you talk about the current measures in place for this?

[David Duval]

Across Canada, there are a number of whistleblowers on hog farms. Whenever a small issue arises, several people get involved. Technicians make weekly visits to the farms and agronomists and veterinarians come to check the feed and the substances injected into the animals. For each animal, a treatment record must be kept for a given period. The assessments conducted by these people are verified at the end of the year by an external auditor. This auditor may cause them to lose their veterinarian or agronomist designation if they fail to meet the criteria of the verifications conducted. If producers don't do their job properly, they may be subject to penalties such as the revocation of their right to sell their animals in a slaughterhouse inspected by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, or CFIA.

Next there are the processors and the CFIA, which conducts a check every time an animal enters the slaughterhouse. If there's any suspicion that an animal may have been mistreated in some manner, or if the animal has red spots or a mark on its back that looks unusual, the CFIA immediately calls the producer; the department of agriculture, fisheries and food, or MAPAQ; and Les Éleveurs de porcs du Québec, which I represent, to report the case. This can happen occasionally. However, there's almost always an immediate reason or recommendation, such as a repair that must be done or a pen that needs cleaning.

We take action, and this makes the farmers' job extremely precise. Many people interact and none of them can circumvent the process and hope to not get caught. It's very clear to us that no one can avoid the verification process.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you.

One witness suggested that we change the wording of the bill and remove the “knowing that” part so that the person can't plead ignorance. What are your thoughts on this?

[David Duval]

We raise a great deal of awareness at airports, especially about swine fever and the possible impact of this disease on animals. It's important for us that this part be maintained.