Agriculture Committee on Nov. 30th, 2022

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening to the witnesses.

From what you said, Mr. Laurin, you haven't necessarily heard from the processors that any importers are interested. However, the representatives of the Chicken Farmers of Canada told us a few of them are.

Would you please tell us, from your vantage point, what the potential impact on prices might be if importers were were to begin taking an interest?

[Jean-Michel Laurin]

That's an excellent question.

First of all, I'd like to correct something I said earlier. I know the Chicken Farmers of Canada heard that some businesses would like to import certain products. That doesn't surprise me. As I mentioned to your colleague Mr. Lehoux, many businesses in the industry, including some of our members, specialize in international trade. We could therefore assume that there would be some interest in this.

As regards the impact on prices, everything depends on the volumes that could enter Canada and on our ability to readjust accordingly. I know that the committee also wants to assess the quantity of products that might be imported. As I mentioned, we don't really have any record to rely on. The departmental officials you received on Monday said that, according to their projections, materially speaking, volumes wouldn't really be enough to disrupt the industry. I can tell you that you don't necessarily need large volumes to have an impact. Everything depends on the types of products that would enter Canada and on the speed at which they would do so. That could definitely have an impact.

The witnesses who appeared on Monday said that a shipment of dairy products had entered Canada. If it's of that scope, I think we could probably handle it. However, if we're talking about a larger quantity, we'll really have to ask ourselves some serious questions. That's why we're reaching out to the government and telling it that it must monitor the situation closely. We have to know what could enter the country if Ukraine were able to export those products to Canada. We have to make sure we're agile and able to respond quite quickly to that situation if the need arises.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

The representatives of the Chicken Farmers of Canada told us that the product that might be imported was chicken wings. This is a product that forms a very small share of the market and would therefore not really disrupt that market. Do you share that worry?

[Jean-Michel Laurin]

It all depends on the types of products. Are they high value-added products? Are they products that have been processed? Are they chicken wings or boneless chicken breasts? It all depends on both volumes and the types of products that might arrive here in Canada.

As my colleague Mr. McFall said, the entire supply management system is a well-oiled machine. It's important to have predictability regarding the products that enter the domestic market. If imports exceed what's expected, that can really disrupt our market. We don't want to wind up in that situation because we want to ensure there are no repercussions for consumers. As Mr. Drouin mentioned earlier, inflation fortunately hasn't pushed up the prices of poultry products as much as those of certain other products. We want to ensure we maintain adequate product supply in the Canadian market. To do that, we have to prevent imports from exceeding planned levels because that would disrupt the market.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

You say the market may be disrupted if imports exceed estimates. However, it doesn't take much to disrupt the market when estimated volumes are already very low. That's one way to draw a comparison.

[Jean-Michel Laurin]

Exactly. As Mr. McFall said, if those products were to enter Canada, we'd like to be informed of them as soon as possible before they arrive. That wouldn't solve the problem, but we would at least have a little more predictability. It would enable us to talk to the government people responsible, who, on Monday, seemed open to a closer dialogue with us in the coming weeks and months, if necessary.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

We'd like that.

I'm going to ask you another question, but anyone who wishes may then add his or her two cents.

Earlier you said that the supply management system was a well-oiled machine. Here we're sort of opening it up and creating a precedent, as you yourself said.

Should we worry about dumping or unfair competition? Are any grey areas emerging?

[Tim Lambert]

Maybe I'll tackle that one.

With regard to an egg exam, we know, for example, that Ovostar has a processing company in Latvia, so could eggs or egg products come in from other projects and be routed through the company? There's a risk, and we don't know what that is.

We have a saying in our industry: “An egg pushes an egg.” If eggs are coming in from other countries, then that means we don't have a home for the eggs that we're producing; it's as simple as that. With a longer cycle of laying hens, from the time we start issuing new quota before we see all of those birds in production, it's 18 months. You can't pivot on a dime when it comes to unlimited, unknown quantities of egg or egg product coming into the country. It's simply going to upend the orderly marketing system that we presently have.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Has anyone ever guaranteed Egg Farmers of Canada that this would be strictly monitored or that traceability would be provided? Has anyone guaranteed that antidumping measures would be introduced?

[Roger Pelissero]

We haven't been consulted, so I guess I would say that there have been no guarantees. We don't know what the protocols or the surveillance system would be at all regarding eggs.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Sometimes people come and talk to us after a new policy has been adopted, even if no consultations have been conducted beforehand. My understanding then is that this hasn't been done either.

[Roger Pelissero]

No, it hasn't.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

We'll leave it at that.

Thank you, Mr. Pelissero.

Thank you very much, Mr. Savard-Tremblay.

I now give the floor to Ms. Collins for six minutes.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for their testimony.

I'm going to start by following up on Mr. Longfield's questions around other ways to support Ukraine. I am really interested in some of the examples you gave. I am wondering in particular whether, with technical assistance to rebuild the agricultural sector in Ukraine, there are opportunities for Canadian organizations and the Canadian government to provide support in that way.

[Roger Pelissero]

You know, I think there are always ways we can support those endeavours with the technology that we have here in North America and the practices that we have in our barns. I mean, the Ukrainians aren't a developing nation. They have a lot of good technology, too, to produce product, but after a war, they're going to have to rebuild. When that rebuilding starts again, the best way we can support them is probably with dollars to help rebuild their barns, rebuild their facilities, buy the technology to bring their agriculture business back to that world-class level that would allow them to become a trading partner and meet the trading requirements under the WTO.

Those are my comments.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you.

Yes, we heard from the Ukrainian Canadian Congress that economic support is one of the key ways. This seems like one lever to give economic support, but really, it seems like there could be many others.

When it comes to consultation, it sounds like neither the Canadian Poultry and Egg Processors Council nor the Egg Farmers of Canada was consulted, and we heard in our last panel that the Chicken Farmers of Canada was also not consulted. I'm curious. Ms. Coughlin, were you consulted as an expert, an agriculture lawyer, or do you have a sense of the expectations around consultation when it comes to these?

[Katrina Coughlin]

We wouldn't normally be contacted about something like a goods remission order.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you.

Excuse my ignorance, but I'm curious about food safety around the Egg Farmers of Canada, specifically. Regarding some of the food safety concerns you talked about, what would be the impact on egg farmers in Canada, and on the Canadian public, if eggs are coming in?

[Roger Pelissero]

We have different levels of food safety standards around the world. Even our counterparts in the U.S. meet our standards, if they're going to bring product into Canada. Salmonella testing is one of them. We test salmonella in our barns and environments. They test eggs. If you're going to test an egg, you're hardly ever going to find salmonella, but you will find it in a barn. There are practices taking place. We want to make sure the product that consumers are getting is safe.

Canadian consumers have a high regard for Canadian farmers, whether it's for chicken, turkey, egg, dairy, any type of grain produced or whatever. Lost confidence in Canadian products—having that confidence jeopardized—is what we're concerned about. We would lose market. People would go away from eating that product. Just look at what Time news did regarding cholesterol. It affected our market greatly. It could have the same effect, ultimately.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

In the last panel, we heard about the length of the potential impact of the order. It ends on June 9, 2023, but frozen goods could last longer. What you're saying is that the impact could be even longer, if something happens and people lose confidence.

Ms. Coughlin, as a newcomer to this topic, I found your opening remarks very insightful and enlightening.

The CFIA is making decisions. You spoke a little about how CFIA looks at food safety concerns. In your opinion, looking at this case, do you have a sense of where they would go with the decision? Can you speculate?

[Katrina Coughlin]

It's very hard to speculate without having any access to the results of the audit they conducted.

I think the concern being raised here is this: Despite what they may have seen in the audit—having found that the system met our requirements at that point in time—there's a question lingering about whether Ukraine is still in a position to meet those requirements under the current circumstances.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

How would they make a decision? In this new context of war, where there are, potentially, electrical outages, water shortages, sanitation issues, etc., how would they get that new information?

[Katrina Coughlin]

Generally speaking, there's an obligation or understanding between the parties that, if any situation arises that would impact the foreign country's food safety system, they would share that information with the CFIA.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Do we know whether Ukraine has shared information?

[Katrina Coughlin]

I believe the CFIA testified on Monday that they've had conversations with Ukraine.