Agriculture Committee on June 12th, 2023

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

I'm not hearing that at all. The 30 days was an established term, from talking to the industry. There were all different terms—15 days, 60 days, 90 days—but it was felt that 30 days worked the best for people and was the most reasonable.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I mean, I'd be a liar if CPMA hadn't been on us for the last seven years, since I've been here, anyway...if the Canadian Produce Marketing Association wasn't trying to lobby us to present a similar bill to what you've presented. Is the majority of their membership supportive of your efforts?

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Yes.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Perfect.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

The nice thing is that we're going to hear from them today—boots on the ground.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

That's great.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Mr. Perron, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Davidson, for being with us today to discuss this important bill.

As was mentioned earlier, all the political parties are going to vote in favour of the bill and I'm very pleased about that. You know that we are in favour of the bill, so my aim today is to clarify a number of points and determine whether there are any gaps that we could fill to make it the best possible bill, even though we are willing to support it as it stands.

My first question, Mr. Davidson, is about a point that was raised earlier. We are frequently reminded that losses over the past few years have accounted for less than 0.1% of total sales. You gave a brief response concerning this percentage earlier.

Why do you think this percentage is so low at the moment?

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

That's sort of a double-loaded question. I think the percentage is actually higher.

I spoke to the example of Ken during COVID. He said, “Scot, I don't want to plant my fields, because I'm afraid of not getting paid.” I told him not to do that, because, as we all know here, that would lead to less supply and less produce. Therefore, it would mean higher prices for the consumers and on and on and on.

In that one instance, and there's more than that, that actual low number doesn't capture all those Kens who are out there, number one. That's why I feel that number is low. This legislation will help a lot of small and medium-sized businesses. How much of that was reported, I'm not sure, but I think that number isn't quite right.

It was interesting to loop around on my last PMB on Bill C-204, the export of plastic waste for final disposal. The other issue was that the government said, “Scot, you know, this happened once or twice. It's not happening. We don't need this bill.” But the fact of the matter was that the Fifth Estate went out and tracked shipping containers that were going to Thailand with plastics. They were all operating under the cover of darkness. It was happening.

I think there's a lot captured in those statistics. I have a couple of farmers in my riding, out of that Leamington case, who were and who are currently worried. That's a huge number. They didn't get paid $200,000 in a receivable. A lot of our small and medium-sized farmers can't take that.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I'm pleased about the answer you've given me. It's important to air out the criticisms we receive. There are also a lot of losses that are likely not reported because fruit and vegetable growers, without any recourse, are usually willing to quickly settle at a discount with a company in trouble, out of concern that it will go bankrupt. In such instances, they would be paid half or a quarter of what they are owed, and that's not reflected in the statistics. It's important to bring that out and that's why I asked the question.

There's another objection, and it has to do with the banks. People say that a financial protection mechanism of that kind would give produce growers priority over financial institutions, and that might make the banks more reluctant to give credit to clients and produce growers.

What do you have to say about that?

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

I would think, from the research we've looked at, that it's quite the contrary. It's the same in the U.S. This, again, is going to give more certainty in the marketplace. I suspect, even looking at some U.S. data, that it's actually going to help the industry. It's quite the reverse. That's what I see.

In speaking to farmers and people in that industry.... Let's face it. These companies you sell to, and the distributors, are still limited-liability companies. There is going to be only so much money in the pot. One of the arguments was, “Farmers are going to start selling to companies that are in distress.” Well, they're still limited-liability companies. That doesn't make sense, because there's going to be only so much money available there, at the end of the day. This doesn't become some free-for-all, where you're selling to everyone.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

That's an excellent answer. Once again, we're happy to hear what you have to say.

I'd like to return to some things you said. Earlier, you mentioned a grower who was hesitating about planting his crops. I too have heard the same sort of arguments. I even saw that a number of crops had not been planted because the grower was afraid of not having enough labour for the harvest, owing in part to problems in connection with foreign workers. Unfortunate experiences from previous years have made people cautious.

I've also seen some growers switch to field crops because they require less labour given that the process can be mechanized. We all know that growing fruit and vegetables is extremely arduous. They are subject to bad weather and unpredictable climate conditions. We need to do everything possible to help them. From this standpoint, Mr. Davidson, the bill you are defending, C‑280, is excellent. The committee will continue its efforts to have it passed quickly.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

We'll now turn to Mr. MacGregor for up to six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Mr. Davidson, to our committee.

It's nice to see Bill C-280 come here. Congratulations on getting such a strong showing of support at second reading. I think that's put a lot of wind into the sails behind this bill. Obviously, from what I've seen with the questioning so far, you're getting a pretty favourable response.

I'm always interested in learning a little about what inspires MPs to come up with their PMBs. You mentioned that particular farmer in your riding. Were there any other examples that led you to take this path?

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Thank you.

Again, I want to thank the NDP, the Bloc, the Greens and the Liberals for supporting this.

It was funny, Alistair. When I was first elected to the House of Commons, the Honourable Rob Nicholson pulled me aside. He said, “Scot, I came to your riding once, and you had that really black soil. They were growing carrots in your riding.” I said, “That's right.” He said, “Do you know what I have in my riding? It's peaches.” He went on to say, “I'm going to give you a tip. People always ask me why I talk about peaches.” He said to me, “Scot, it's because, if I don't look after peaches, no one else is going to, so you look after carrots in your riding, Scot.”

My riding, of course, is home to.... I call it the “soup and salad bowl of Canada”. I'm very proud of the Holland Marsh. It provides 80% of the fresh produce Ontario consumes. That was my inspiration—I live on a farm myself—to do something for farmers and agriculture.

I think this is an important bill that's going to help our fresh produce farmers right across Canada.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

On that point, I think a lot of Canadians' only experience with fruit and vegetables is being able.... They just want to have access to buy them. They're not necessarily aware of some of the very complex business arrangements that exist in our supply chains. Perhaps you could paint a picture. You brought up the example of the farmer in your riding who was wondering, “Is it worth it for me to plant my field? I'm going to have to put up all this money up front.” He was worried about payment.

Can you talk about the journey produce takes to get to its end destination, and also the journey payment has to take to get back to the originator, underlining why this kind of bill is necessary?

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Number one, it's the perishable nature of fresh produce, whether you want to talk about lettuce or carrots. Why is this bill so important? It's not like you're selling televisions, for example. If someone doesn't pay you for your TVs, you can go back and try to get your TVs back. There's an inventory item there.

When someone sells strawberries or lettuce, those are rotted after 30 days. They're either sold, or they're rotted in the field. They don't have an opportunity to recapture unsold inventory. Again, circling back to my Bloc colleague and you, all the challenges that fresh produce farming goes through are incredible, especially right now with climate change, with getting people to work the fields and with all the things that have to happen at the end of the day to make this carrot and onion happen. There are big farmers, there are medium-sized farmers, and there are small farmers. This bill is so important to help that whole sector.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

You mentioned you are a voracious reader of agriculture committee reports, and I commend you on that. You would be aware of the number of recommendations we've made over several Parliaments dealing with the creation of a limited deemed trust. We've also received some government responses on that. I think some of the frustration is that we've been calling for this for quite some time. The NDP has been running this in our election platform since 2015.

When we get a government response, there's a bit of equivocation where it states things like “Canada's insolvency laws aim to strike the appropriate balance between competing interests of debtors and creditors.” It wants to make sure that everyone's being treated equitably, and that any changes have to be evidence-based.

When you hear those types of points being made in a government response to a very clear recommendation that is based on overwhelming witness testimony and submissions to this committee, what are some of the first things that come to mind about how the current process is actually quite unfair and maybe the government response has glossed that over a bit?

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Thanks for the question, Alistair.

We are all sent here as members of Parliament to represent our constituents. I know that is true of everyone sitting around this table. I think it's frustrating. The current Liberal government had this in its policy platform in 2015. Here we are in 2023. Previously to this becoming a PMB, I tried to get this into the budget implementation act. I basically pleaded with the Deputy Prime Minister to have this included. It would have been a great thing if she could have included that in a budget. There were a couple of times that opportunity was missed.

Here we are now. I don't think I'm putting words in the mouth of the Minister of Agriculture. The last time she was in front of this committee, she said, I think to you, that she was happy to see this PMB. It was a mechanism through which we could get this done. That makes me positive. We can always talk about the past. I'm here on team Canada, team carrot and team agriculture today to get this done.

I want to move forward for the sector, as we all do, and get this bill done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

We'll keep it at that, gentlemen.

Thank you, Mr. Davidson and Mr. MacGregor.

We'll now turn to Mr. Steinley for five minutes, please.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to my friend and colleague, Scot Davidson, for being here this fine evening.

You mentioned something in your comments that agriculture producers really don't see that often, and that's certainty. They're looking for certainty in the market to ensure there's money there at the end. Being from Saskatchewan, there's a lot of agriculture in my background. I grew up on a farm as well, and that certainty is there for certain agricultural industries. For example, there's crop insurance, and now there's a western livestock price insurance program.

Do you see this being on the same lines as that certainty for other agricultural producers? Does this make it, as you said, a more level playing field for the fruit and vegetable growers across the country?

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

I think certainty is key now, especially for this market. Alistair alluded to the comments about what farmers go through, at the end of the day, to make this carrot. I think tonight, in the House of Commons, they're debating the hybrid Parliament. There is no hybrid farming. This is a boots-on-the-ground, hard-work industry from five in the morning until eight at night, seven days a week. The food terminal's going. This is a massive job to feed Canadians and to literally feed the world.

Again, this is a sector that I think deserves that financial security, for sure. It's something I want to see. If you look at other industries—again, alluding to dairy, pork, chicken and whatnot—they all have their sort of security, let's call it. I think this is one niche of farming that's never had anything. I think it's a huge growth sector for Canada. As Canadians—and as a vision for the country—we have to get behind and drive agriculture forward.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Would this just protect growers, or would it protect wholesalers and other areas of the fruit and veggie industry?