Evidence of meeting #8 for Bill C-11 (41st Parliament, 1st Session) in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was copyright.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Your comments about digital, and the comments we've heard from other witnesses, are that we're on this threshold of huge opportunity, to be able to exploit that in terms of if we get copyright and allow people to do that.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
In my view, having had a business background prior to politics, something comes along to fill a niche if you don't fill it. So it isn't doomsday; it's actually opportunity day.
11:20 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, McGraw-Hill Ryerson Limited, Canadian Publishers' Council
That's right.
11:20 a.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Glenn Thibeault
Thank you, Mr. McColeman and Mr. Swail.
Now to Mr. Regan for five minutes.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Are we going to be hearing from witnesses from the K to 12 sector—I guess that would be the provinces—at some point, do you know?
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
11:20 a.m.
NDP
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Thank you.
Let me turn to the question of fair dealing. Ms. Hemmings, you've heard the suggestion today from your fellow witnesses that the test ought to be the effect on the market. That should be the principal test, as apparently it is in the U.S. What impact would that have on you, do you think, and on libraries like yours?
11:20 a.m.
Chair, Copyright Committee, Canadian Association of Law Libraries
Again, going back to the whole notion of fair dealing, and certainly there was a consideration of that being tested in a commercial situation, I don't think we're arguing that this particular test needs to be dropped. Quite honestly, we're not in the business of putting our publishers out of business. We are in the business of exchanging the kinds of information that are not readily available among other libraries. To give you an example, there is a saying now, or there has been among librarians, that we're seeing the McDonaldization of libraries, meaning that all libraries are starting to buy the same thing. You can expect to see the same books and textbooks in one place as you can in another.
What distinguishes us are the unusual things that we buy because of our regional interests, our geographic interests, and also the interests of our specific users. For example, if I find out from another library that they wish to borrow a copy of an article written by Mackenzie King in the 1930s on employment and labour law, and very few libraries in my region are going to have that article, I want to be able to go into a database and be able to find that article and then flip it over to the borrowing library. That is fair dealing.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Thank you.
Ms. Hushion, let me ask you, do you see a distinction to be made between textbooks that are published for a limited market and other texts when it comes to the educational market?
11:20 a.m.
Executive Director, External Relations, Legal and Government Affairs, Canadian Publishers' Council
Do I see a distinction in terms of their importance or a distinction—
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
No, in terms of how they're treated when it comes to copyright and the education sector.
11:20 a.m.
Executive Director, External Relations, Legal and Government Affairs, Canadian Publishers' Council
There shouldn't be. That seems to be most inappropriate. I don't know why that would be the case.
An example is some work that Mr. Nordal's company has just done on aboriginal business and books written for that community to help them grow skills in the business community.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Let me ask you then, would the effect on the market test, do you think, mean that a court would probably find there would be much more effect on a market for a book or text like you just described if there are some copies made, or copies made of a portion of it, as opposed to something that had a much wider distribution?
11:25 a.m.
Executive Director, External Relations, Legal and Government Affairs, Canadian Publishers' Council
Potentially, yes. As Mr. Swail said, that's a niche market, it's a small market, and if you've got the return on investment from your legacy materials that allows you to invest in things like what I've just described Mr. Nordal's company doing, that's great. If you start losing, if you have erosion of that legacy market, then you're not going to be able to invest in those important niche markets, many of which relate to the various peoples of our country, and languages, and outlying areas where distance education may be the only way, and not even make it there.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Thank you.
Ms. Hemmings, you talk about digital locks. Your view appears to be that if you've paid once for something, you ought to be able to use it in other forms, or formats shift, as we've heard.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
I think the phrasing you've used is that you ought to be able to do this for any uses that qualify under fair dealing.