Evidence of meeting #8 for Bill C-11 (41st Parliament, 1st Session) in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was copyright.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:10 a.m.
NDP
Andrew Cash NDP Davenport, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you all for being here today. I particularly want to thank Mr. Swail for his overview of the textbook publishing industry and the importance of Canadian content. You should be congratulated for both your survival and your success.
11:10 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, McGraw-Hill Ryerson Limited, Canadian Publishers' Council
Thank you.
11:10 a.m.
NDP
Andrew Cash NDP Davenport, ON
It also needs to be recognized that it's not just you, of course. You're hiring and contracting writers, photographers, designers, etc., and these are all small business people.
11:10 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, McGraw-Hill Ryerson Limited, Canadian Publishers' Council
Absolutely.
11:10 a.m.
NDP
Andrew Cash NDP Davenport, ON
We want to create a climate where the sector is growing.
We understand that you have challenges around the transition to digital. Your point around the investments you're making in digital, even though the price is still the same, is well taken. It's something that not just this committee but Parliament going forward needs to consider.
I want to ask Ms. Hemmings about the issues around inter-library loans. What would libraries, archives, and museums have to do in order to comply with what seems to be very vague wording around taking measures to prevent X, Y, and Z?
11:10 a.m.
Chair, Copyright Committee, Canadian Association of Law Libraries
I totally agree that the wording on that is very vague. In fact it's quite disturbing, because we've never had to take that kind of extreme measure before. We've always taken measures to make sure that users are aware of copyright and cannot abuse the system. For example, we've put up signs around photocopiers saying they must be aware there's a certain obligation on the part of the user.
My concern is the policing role we're being asked to do, which I think is beyond what we've been doing up until now. It seems to focus only on digital resources. It's not telling us we have to follow the user to the photocopy machine and make sure they only make one copy. In saying that we have to do the same in a digital environment, it looks like it's been sort of stuck in there as an afterthought, quite honestly. The same principles should apply to print as they do to digital to ensure a good way of handling copyright material.
11:10 a.m.
NDP
Andrew Cash NDP Davenport, ON
Can you spell out for the committee some examples of what may be required under this provision?
11:15 a.m.
Chair, Copyright Committee, Canadian Association of Law Libraries
On the public library level, to make it understandable for everyone from kindergarten to grade 12, and that sort of thing, you can borrow a book from the public library by downloading it to your BlackBerry—and then it's gone; you sort of borrow it for a period of time.
Technically, there are people who know how to get around a lot of these things, and that's where the issue of digital locks comes into play. There's no problem at all with borrowing a book in digital format for personal reasons. On what happens to it after it leaves the library...I cannot predict how a librarian will try to imagine some sort of technological way that someone will actually do that. Why they would do that, quite honestly, is another question.
Yes, you can borrow a book right now and make 500 copies, set up a booth on the street, and hope to make a commercial killing. But it's not likely to happen. The same goes for digital books that come out of libraries in that way.
11:15 a.m.
NDP
Andrew Cash NDP Davenport, ON
I'd also like you to speak to the provision about using a digital copy for more than five business days from the day on which a person uses it.
11:15 a.m.
Chair, Copyright Committee, Canadian Association of Law Libraries
It's virtually impossible to regulate that one. We would need to have people trying to figure...or we would have to try to impose digital locks ourselves. I don't think libraries can possibly be doing that kind of thing. You can't follow a book out of a door and say you can only have it for five days. Imposing loan periods like that, depending on the institution you serve, may or may not be good. In some academic institutions a term loan is the norm, so you can have a bit of material for an entire term. I'm not quite sure where the five-day provision comes from.
11:15 a.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Glenn Thibeault
Thank you, Ms. Hemmings and Mr. Cash.
Mr. McColeman, you now have five minutes.
11:15 a.m.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here.
Ms. Hushion, in your original comments today you painted the background of your industry, the employment numbers, and the structure of the people you represent in what I would interpret as a doomsday scenario if this bill goes forward. Then it went to Mr. Swail, and I'll ask him the next question.
Is that what you intended to do?
11:15 a.m.
Executive Director, External Relations, Legal and Government Affairs, Canadian Publishers' Council
No, I said that's what's at risk. Potentially, if the bill passes with this proposed exception for education for fair dealing reversed—sorry, unamended—the industry will not disappear overnight. It won't happen. There will be a very slow and constant attrition. There will be less incentive, as David said, for investment. People will be more worried about their goods in the marketplace. Over the longer term—and I'm talking about maybe the first couple of years—we would see quite a bit of that. Over an even longer term, I think we would see Canada return to the position it was in 25 years ago, as a net importer of educational goods. As David said, we have a great success story.
I'm glad you asked that question, because I wanted to share one statistic that I think is fabulous, when you consider that we are joined—
11:15 a.m.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Excuse me, I have limited time, and you've answered my question. Could I just leave it at that?
11:15 a.m.
Executive Director, External Relations, Legal and Government Affairs, Canadian Publishers' Council
Okay—we're 50% of the market.
11:15 a.m.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
I'll go to Mr. Swail next.
Mr. Swail, this market demand for Canadian goods—which is a great story that I think all of us, regardless of political stripe, love to hear—do you see it going anywhere? You say that it's an increasing demand, an increasing opportunity for you. You're obviously able to produce the products because of that demand, and you respond to market demand as a business, so what will happen to that demand in the event of a new copyright bill?
11:15 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, McGraw-Hill Ryerson Limited, Canadian Publishers' Council
Our principal concern is that, as currently worded, the definition of education is too broad. Our principal concern is that it would allow a much broader interpretation of how our commercial product could be used in an educational setting, in a way that perhaps undermines our opportunity to continue to sell that product. So it's about generating enough revenue to continue to reinvest in other disciplines, disciplines that are still principally U.S.-based, to be able to develop original product in some of those adjacent markets where we still rely on imported products mostly.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
I think Mr. Nordal kind of hit it in his comments about certain categories of Canadian demand not being able to be served, but this would imply a subsidization of that category by your company. Is that correct?
11:20 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, McGraw-Hill Ryerson Limited, Canadian Publishers' Council
I'm not quite sure I follow the logic.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Okay. You're saying that the demand is there, but that you basically have to factor that into your business plan, your revenues, to be able to serve it—
11:20 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, McGraw-Hill Ryerson Limited, Canadian Publishers' Council
True.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
—and so you're subsidizing it because there are fewer numbers perhaps.
11:20 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, McGraw-Hill Ryerson Limited, Canadian Publishers' Council
That's right.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
The demand is there, but you're subsidizing it from other revenues.
11:20 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, McGraw-Hill Ryerson Limited, Canadian Publishers' Council
That's true. Undoubtedly in certain categories we have bigger markets to serve in the lower levels of post-secondary and introductory years, for example, bigger markets, higher enrollments. That's where a lot of our money is made, and it allows us to publish in more niche areas and in more senior levels where currently we import a lot more product. So it will allow us to expand up the value chain, if you will, within the higher education setting. It will allow us, critically, to reinvest in digital.