Bill C-11 Committee on March 6th, 2012

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Would that be different from saying that you could use it for a non-infringing purpose? Do you see a distinction? Is that an issue for you?

[Mary Hemmings]

A non-infringing purpose, yes. We wouldn't necessarily support an infringing purpose.

I'm not sure what the question really is.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Sorry, what I mean is if the rule would be that you're allowed to circumvent for a lawful purpose, for a non-infringing purpose, is there a distinction between that and what you're suggesting?

[Mary Hemmings]

It goes back to our relationship with our publishers, if our publisher would allow a licence to do that sort of thing. The lock is there for a reason. We have to know what the contract obligation is for that lock and if that contract obligation is not something that we can live with, then certainly we wouldn't do it. But again, we're looking at the lock as a contract.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Thank you, Ms. Hemmings and Mr. Regan.

That's the end of our first round of questioning.

Now we go to our second round of five minutes each.

Starting us off is Mr. Armstrong.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our guests for their testimony today.

Mr. Swail, I want to start with you. You talked more about higher education. Is that because from K to 12 you have more of a niche market and you're still able to market your goods under today's market constraints?

[David Swail]

In reality we decided that I would focus on that part of the market and Mr. Nordal would focus on the K to 12 sector, but there are significant differences from a digital perspective, which we can address if that's of interest.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Okay. Maybe I'll direct it to Mr. Nordal then.

Today's classroom and K to 12, that's my background, and that's why I want to focus on it.

[Greg Nordal]

Sure.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

The classrooms in Canada are far different from what they used to be. Most baby boomers learned under a basal reading program. People remember those, but things have changed a lot. I'm going to argue that they've changed a lot because of who's in the classroom. We have a much more inclusive environment. It's much more heterogeneous.

[Greg Nordal]

Sure.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

We have varying ability levels. We have a lot of immigration. We have a lot of ESL concerns. So a teacher in a K to 12 classroom, particularly at the elementary level, could have a reading level in a grade 6 class from grade 2 all the way to grade 8, and they have to be able to meet those demands. What have you done to capture that market and provide resources that meet today's demands?

[Greg Nordal]

I think the more we do in the world of digital, the more we would help that situation. If you have an access code, for example, you could have access to a classroom. So a science teacher might find a remedial learning opportunity if the language skills aren't appropriate for the actual science material. They can digitally use their access codes, go back a few grades, and help the kid come up to speed. But understand that very few classrooms in Canada are equipped to go fully digital, that is, without textbooks. I wish they were; it would be fantastic. As educational publishers, we've invested millions, collectively, to get ready. The K to 12 sector is struggling to finance this. There are issues of equity, access, and hardware.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

The new schools being built all over the country are ready for this. They're technologically superior, most of them. I was principal of a school in Nova Scotia, a new school, that could handle almost anything you could send us. I was also principal of a small rural school. You have to meet those diverse demands, just as a teacher has to meet diverse demands in her classroom.

[Greg Nordal]

Correct.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

With all these changes going on, and all this diversity in the classrooms, how do you see the protections in C-11 for digital media? Is that going to help or hurt you? Where do you see it going?

[Greg Nordal]

There is a wide range. I think the solutions for many years to come will be of a hybrid kind, increasingly digital but with a mix of text. On the development side, the costs attached to developing a learning resource come to hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. The cost of printing a book and binding it is probably 10% to 12% of the actual cost. The cost is in the digital, in the content development. When it goes digital without adequate protection, it could be subject to illegal reproduction. You don't have to use a photocopier—it's a click of a button. It's easily dealt with. Digital locks help that situation, but very little of this is finding its way into the classroom today.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

But this is coming. Schools are going to adopt much more digital stuff, because there's a need to. Print costs have driven textbook costs up so much, and you have to provide so many different resources for each classroom.

As a principal, I'm always looking to provide economical digital resources that meet the demands of a diverse classroom. No longer would I need to have a whole classroom set of Charlotte's Web, for example. I might need to have a classroom set where I have a high interest level at a low reading level for weaker readers. I might need to have some additional resources for my more advanced children who might be beyond that reading level. You're providing all that. The best way to provide me the resources I can use in my school is digital. Is that accurate?

[Greg Nordal]

We're so far away from digital that it's only accurate to a point. Less than 10% of K to 12 today, by my estimate, are equipped to use digital. I have talked to schools that are very equipped. We've done pilots in schools. We've learned a lot about some of the challenges—access via WiFi, the hardware. It's not a panacea, and it is not short-term. It's definitely going that way, you're correct. But it's years away.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Copyright legislation is going to go on for years, so we have to write legislation today that is going to meet those challenges for tomorrow. Is that correct?

[Greg Nordal]

We have to meet challenges for today as well as tomorrow.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Mr. Nantel, you have five minutes, please.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am going to try to be as concise as my colleague.

My question is for the representatives of the Canadian Publishers' Council, and for the representatives of the Canadian Educational Resources Council. Clearly, publishing is akin to managing a book, and not an author. You have to ensure that the work is publicized, read, that people are aware of it, and that it is distributed to all markets.

I would like to make sure of your position with regard to persons with perceptual disabilities such as visual impairment or blindness. What work is being done with regard to digitizing books for these people?

[Jacqueline Hushion]

Actually, I sat for five years on the federal council on access for the visually impaired, and our association has been very involved in pilots. We're doing one right now in the province of Ontario—six universities, two community colleges, and five publishers—and hopefully that will be exploded out to all publishers and all institutions within Ontario.

We're doing everything we can to facilitate, in print and in digital, rapid access to content for the student. The complaint has always been that the available intermediaries didn't get the information to the student before the course had begun, and in some cases they were at exam time. We're working on this, and so far we appear to be having some luck. Those students seem to be quite pleased.

You should know that the World Intellectual Property Organization is really hoping to push forward with an international treaty that will address this very issue. I'm involved with that as well. If Canada ratified that treaty, it would obviously move things along.

The last thing is that there's a new project now, called the TIGAR project, and Canada will be involved in it. The purpose of the project is to move files across borders. Transborder data flow is a big issue when you're talking about intellectual property, because people don't want their property just “out there”, so to speak. It's a very big issue. There are worries about infringement and piracy, etc. But as long as the files are already converted, to be used for students as opposed to the general public, and students know how to use those files, there is some safety there.

So with the security measures built in, it'll be fine. The Americans are in the TIGAR project, we're in it, the U.K. is in it, and so are South Africa, France, Belgium. I mean, we've really just begun, but there is a tremendous amount of work being done.

It's unfortunate that there appear to be a lot of initiatives under a lot of umbrellas, and there's not yet any evidence that all of this will coalesce. That's what we really need. The TIGAR project may do that.