Canada-China Relations Committee on Feb. 25th, 2021

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

With that in mind, there were many pro-Hong Kong protesters out in British Columbia. They have experienced threats and intimidation from Chinese officials. How can they lodge a complaint?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

There are mechanisms, and I'm going to refer that question back over to our officials because they have set up those systems.

Let me also, if I may, take a moment, Ms. Yip, to point out that the activity of every country to influence other countries is pretty routine diplomatic activity. But when it crosses that line of trying to interfere with our democratic institutions, interfere with the lawful activities of our citizens, interfere with our elections, that's unacceptable and we need to stand forcefully to confront it, to refute it, and to mitigate it in every way possible.

I wonder if I might just quickly refer, Mr. Chair, to one of my officials to talk about the process of making that information known to authorities.

[David Vigneault, Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service]

I would just say that we have mechanisms to reach out to the communities ourselves, but we also have a 1-800 number where we are referring people to contact CSIS directly, anonymously, to be able to report the activities. We do so to protect the identity of the people reaching out to us. This is one way that exists.

I know that our colleagues at the RCMP also have similar tools, so maybe I can turn to the commissioner.

[Commissioner Brenda Lucki, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you.

In any protest, of course, if people are getting intimidated, as soon as that's brought to our attention, there are full investigations. If people have broken any of the laws in the Criminal Code, we will pursue charges in those cases. There are ways to bring these complaints forward, both in person or anonymously through Crime Stoppers, for example.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Should Canadians be wary of using social media that is owned by Chinese companies like WeChat or Weibo or TikTok?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I would say yes, there is a legitimate concern that sometimes the information that's publicly available on those platforms can be used by the hostile activities of state actors, and some caution should be exercised.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bergeron, go ahead for six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I would like to begin by saying hello to the witnesses and thanking them for joining us this evening.

Minister, in another time, we probably would have had an opportunity to come across each other in a federal-provincial conference of ministers of public safety, but that was obviously a different time, as I just said.

Thank you for joining us.

We are discussing extremely sensitive and extremely important topics today. I know that, since this meeting is public, you cannot communicate certain information to us. Perhaps you would want to confidentially send us answers to some of the questions you will be unable to answer orally today.

I would like to put three questions to you concerning the revelation that a Canadian visa application centre in Beijing was being managed by a Chinese company belonging to the Chinese municipal public security bureau.

My first question is very simple: how did we select that company?

My second question is the following: what guarantee do we have that the information gathered from people who use that visa application office—either passports or biometric data—will not be used by the government of the People's Republic of China?

My third question is: what measures must be taken so that the People's Republic of China would not exercise, through that visa application office, control over potential dissidents who would like to leave China?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

We have a number of parliamentary groups, like NSICOP and NSIRA, that are able to receive information from our national security intelligence services that is confidential in nature. However, I very much appreciate your comments about the challenge in a public forum of discussing sensitive matters of security.

Your question is a very important one. We've looked very carefully at this activity. I want to provide you and Canadians with assurances that information is always handled according to our privacy laws. No application or biometric collection data is stored at the visa application centre; all databases containing personal information must, by our rules, be located in Canada. There are also safeguards in place to ensure that personal information is collected, stored and transmitted securely using hard end-to-end encryption. The visa application centres provide only administrative support to IRCC applicants.

I want to assure you that we take the privacy of Canadians very seriously. We're aware of reports that previously an error led to a data breach, but it's important to note that this was through a different VFS client government, on a separate system. I want to assure you that we have our own system, which VFS operates with rigorous safeguards in place.

If there's any more detailed response to that, I would invite the director of the CSE to provide additional insight if she has it available.

[Shelly Bruce, Chief, Communications Security Establishment]

Minister, I do not. This is a service that has been procured by the IRCC. We are available to provide advice and guidance on how to protect systems, and that is available upon request.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you, Shelly. We always rely on your expertise. That's why I turned to you, but I appreciate very much that this isn't something you would be directly involved in.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

That's interesting, because the answer we just got was that we respond to requests we receive. So I will ask you the following question.

Has anyone used your services precisely to ensure that the information this Chinese company has collected at this visa application centre is secure? If not, what guarantee do we have that the information is being kept secure and not being shared with the Chinese government?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

If I may respond to the question on behalf of Ms. Bruce, I have been assured that there are IT safeguards in place to ensure that all of the personal information collected, stored and transmitted on these systems is secure and uses encryption, that VFS only provides administrative support services to applicants, and that all visa-processing decision-making is done by Canadian IRCC officers and not by the company contracted to provide the IT support.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I have no reason not to take your word on it, Mr. Minister, but I find it telling, to say the least, that she said she had not necessarily been approached for advice about it. I must say I'm a little concerned about that.

I want to come back to the questions you didn't answer.

First, how did we come to grant the contract for this visa application centre to this Chinese company?

What led to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Bergeron, excuse me, but your six minutes are up. I must give the floor to the next speaker.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Time really flies when you are in good company, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

It does indeed.

We'll go to Mr. Harris for six minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

I just want to follow up, briefly, on Mr. Bergeron's questions.

From what you're saying, Minister, it seems that all these protections were there. Which agency of the government pre-approved this arrangement to hire this company in Beijing? You told us that the full measure of the mandate of all these agencies is applied to protect Canadians. Which agency approved this arrangement that you're defending at the moment?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

What I'm defending is the work that IRCC does to protect that equipment. I have some difficulty, frankly, answering your question, Mr. Harris, about the origins of this contract. It was signed in 2008—before we were the government—so it's been in place for 12 years now. Its origin and those who actually authorized this contract predate me, my government and, frankly, my knowledge.

What I can tell you is that the procurement processes that were followed.... It is a service provided to IRCC. We follow the normal procurement processes, and I would assume—and I want to make sure it's clear that I'm only able to make an assumption—that those processes were in fact followed. It did take place 12 years ago.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

That's not much comfort, Chair, for me or for anyone listening, to say you have to assume it was done. It sounds as though you're satisfied that the contract is okay, that it should continue and that somebody has, obviously, informed you of this. Which agency of the government has informed you of this, or are you looking back to IRCC instead of to one of the people who are with us today?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

It is a system operated by the IRCC. They have advised that the information is, in every case, handled according to Canada's privacy laws. They've also assured us that no application or biometrically collected data is stored at the visa application centre, that all databases containing personal information are located in Canada, and that the information submitted—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I've heard all of that. Are you saying that you're personally satisfied with it because they've told you it's okay, or has one of these specialist agencies, with all of the technical aspects and mandates to protect Canadians...and presumably people who might use a facility to get through to Canada to potentially, as has been suggested, do espionage work...that no agency of Canada has done that? We're just relying on what IRCC tells you. Am I right in concluding that?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I don't know whether I was unclear. IRCC is actually an agency of Canada.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I understand that, but they're not a security agency. They're looking—

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

No, they're not, but they have an IT specialist department that provided assurances, as I said, that the information is in fact secure.