Canada-China Relations Committee on Feb. 25th, 2021

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much for what I think is a very important question.

Let me be fair for a moment. I think Canada's relationship with China is different today than it was in 2014. I think we've learned, and the activities of the Chinese government have evolved and modified significantly over time. We've stayed contemporary with that increasing threat, and I can tell you that our national security intelligence agencies, law enforcement...the government uses the Investment Canada Act quite aggressively and appropriately to protect Canadian interests.

Our decisions are based on evidence, data and a careful analysis. We follow the advice of our experts very carefully—national security intelligence agencies that keep us informed about the true nature of risk. We look at ways in which those risks can be mitigated and, where they cannot be mitigated, they are not allowed to proceed.

We have taken, I think, a very aggressive stance in doing what is right to protect Canadian interests, and it is a very well-informed and evolving assessment of the risk environment that continues to exist in this country.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you. That's good to know, because I know a lot of my constituents are concerned about that.

In your opening statement, you mentioned opioids and fentanyl getting into Canada from China. As we know, this is very serious. It's an epidemic, in a sense—another epidemic in our country. I'm just wondering if you could speak further about initiatives that the government is taking to stop illegal importation, as well as about the work that the CBSA is doing on this file.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

We have been working really hard to keep some of the precursor chemicals and these drugs out of the country. We passed legislation when we first came into government to give the CBSA greater authority, for example, to search through mail, which was a very unfortunate, common method of importation into the country.

The RCMP is also working very collaboratively with international partners. We do that through a number of different relationships, through the cross-border crime force but also working internationally, because it's a whole global effort.

One of the largest investigations recently completed in Southeast Asia identified an organization that was responsible for literally billions and billions of dollars' worth of drugs being shipped all around the world, including to Canada, and I know the RCMP is fully engaged in those investigations.

We work very closely with not only our Five Eyes partners, but all of our international partners to deal with these things, and we're restoring the resources of the CBSA, some of the tools and technology they need in order to keep these chemicals and drugs out of the country.

Supply interdiction is the first pillar of Canada's national drug strategy, as well as demand reduction, harm reduction and prevention and treatment.

We're very mindful of that responsibility and working diligently to keep those drugs out of the country.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much for that thorough answer.

How much more time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

You have one minute and 15 seconds.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Okay, thank you.

This one is for the CSIS director, Mr. Vigneault.

We know that the pandemic has impacted all of us in all segments of society, and national security threats have continued or even expanded over the past year. Canada is facing new threats to our vaccine supply, as just one example.

Can you provide some overview of how CSIS is adapting to that?

[David Vigneault]

I would say that, yes, the pandemic has taken its toll on us, but the men and women of CSIS have found innovative ways to address the new and emerging threats during the pandemic.

For example, we have put outreach to Canadian biopharma companies and laboratories that are subjected to new threats because of the pandemic. These are the people developing vaccines and techniques to protect Canadians and, unfortunately, a number of hostile actors are interested in the same information.

CSIS and CSE put out, for the first time, a joint statement earlier this past year to talk about this threat. We have unfortunately seen a number of our other actors going there, but the outreach is continuing—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Pardon me, but your time is up.

Thank you very much.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

That's the end of your time, Ms. Zann. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us this evening. It was good to have you with us.

We will now go to our second hour, with the officials.

For the first round, we have Mr. Williamson for six minutes, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Sorry, Mr. Chair, but I want to raise the point that there were some questions we didn't have time to have answered. I wonder if the minister could provide written follow-up to them. Mrs. Stubbs had some specific questions in terms of numbers.

I just want to note that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

We can certainly pass that on to the minister. Thank you very much for that as a point of order.

Mr. Williamson, go ahead, please.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all our witnesses for being here tonight.

In fact, I'll follow up on my colleague's remark. Could we hear, I think from the RCMP and also CSIS, those numbers for the Fox Hunt, please?

[David Vigneault]

We at CSIS have not provided any public numbers about the Fox Hunt operation. I did speak to this operation in previous public remarks where I talked about the approach. In this case, the Chinese government has been using an anti-corruption operation targeted across the world to unfortunately also target dissidents in other countries. We are aware of a number of these cases here in Canada. It is unacceptable that Canadians of Chinese origin, of any community, would be targeted in such a fashion.

We want to have a public debate about this, which hopefully will give a little bit of an opportunity for people who are subject to such tactics to approach the Canadian authorities, CSIS or the RCMP, and report these issues. We are on alert for that. We are investigating. We are also using all tools at our disposal, including our threat reduction measures.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you.

Commissioner, go ahead.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Since in 2015, when that operation evolved into Operation Skynet, it was encouraged that...they had the Chinese top 100 fugitives they wanted to return to China in exchange for lighter sentences. It was believed that 26 of the top 100 economic fugitives resided in Canada, second only to the United States, which was 40.

Our involvement in this initiative is really restricted to facilitating visits to Canada by Chinese law officials to interview Chinese witnesses or suspects under the terms of the protocol on foreign criminal investigations in Canada, which governs the activities of foreign police in Canada. Only in the event that an investigation results in the laying of criminal charges would we confirm the investigation.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Okay.

That brings me to a great question we had amongst our committee members here just a couple of weeks ago. Often foreign coercion could not break any laws. Who deals with that? How do you deal with it? The government says, call 911 and prove your case. But what about just political coercion coming from foreign state entities? How do we deal with that as a country so that Canadians and visitors to this country aren't being coerced on campus or in their communities? What's being done on that?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I think Minister Blair said it earlier. Any time anybody is feeling threatened, they really need to report it to their local police. We do have that 1-800 number, but by the sounds of it, we have to do better communication so that the people who feel threatened know that this number exists and they don't get the runaround, as was mentioned earlier. I think we have to do a better job of communicating those sources and making sure that people don't get the runaround.

Unfortunately, there's no one-stop shopping. We always encourage people to go to the police of jurisdiction, because they are the ones who should be investigating any intimidation or coercion. We probably need to do a bit better in communicating our 1-800 number.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

To follow up, Commissioner, it sounds like there's been no active case you can point to where there's been evidence of foreign interference from the Chinese state or its officials that has concluded in any action. Is that correct?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I don't have those numbers available, but these cases aren't just foreign interference. There are many layers to them, and often they're very long-term investigations that have a bunch of different types of criminal offences attached to them.

I think maybe my colleague from CSIS can talk a little bit more in depth on the coercion portion of that question.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Actually, I'm going to ask for that response in writing afterwards because I'd like to turn to the Communications Security Establishment just for a quick follow-up here.

Several weeks ago, a Huawei executive said on a national news show that your agency had given them, if not a green light, certainly an amber light that we could manage the risk of Huawei here in Canada. I hear that's not true. Could you clarify that for us? What has your agency said about Huawei, and have you assured the government that it's safe to operate in this country?

[Shelly Bruce]

Telecom security is, obviously, very important to Canada, and our mobile networks deserve the very best security that we can offer, so we do work very closely with an organization called the Canadian security telecommunications advisory committee. Together with ISED, Public Safety, CSE and some telcos, we have put together—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'm terribly sorry to interrupt, but the six minutes are up.

We'll have to go now to Mr. Dubourg.

Mr. Dubourg, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's now my turn to greet all the witnesses here with us. I have already met many of them because I sat on the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, or NSICP. I'd also like to commend you for everything you are doing to protect Canadians, here at home and abroad.

I'd like to ask a question that Mr. Vigneault will likely want to answer.

I don't want to play semantics, but on the NSICP, we too talked about foreign influence, foreign interference, cyber threats and espionage.

Are the Chinese authorities actively engaged in all those activities here in Canada?

[David Vigneault]

Thank you very much, Mr. Dubourg. I'm happy to see you again in virtual mode.

I will tell you that the Chinese government is indeed engaged in all those activities. As far as diplomatic influence is concerned, these inter-state relations are truly to be expected.

With respect to interference, as I have said publicly, Chinese government entities are interfering with Canadian democratic life. They are interfering with people in Canada using people from China, cyber threats and also people here in Canada, who are co-opted to work with the Chinese government.

It's something we are looking into. With China, but also with other countries, we must absolutely keep our guard up, take very concrete steps to protect Canadians and do it in a coordinated way with our allies.

It's the only way I believe we can protect Canadians.