Canada-China Relations Committee on May 31st, 2021

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Matthews, I assume it's probably Professor Matthews.

[Kyle Matthews]

No.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Okay. I'm glad I corrected myself.

Mr. Matthews, you mentioned in your opening remarks that there is an existential threat toward Canadian values. Can you explain what you mean by that a little bit? That suggests a near and present danger in terms of our way of life and the freedoms that we take for granted far too often.

[Kyle Matthews]

I think if we look outside of our borders, we're seeing a rise of authoritarian countries and a decline of democracy. There are several powerful authoritarian states. Russia is one, but China is predominantly the most powerful right now. It has deep pockets. It's buying off other countries, and it's actually gaining a lot of influence with the United Nations. We see how it's held up any investigation of the COVID outbreak at the WHO, or how it took a year for the WHO team to arrive in China. We've seen some things going on at the Human Rights Council.

I'm saying that when an authoritarian state clearly doesn't believe in human rights—what's going on with the Uighurs, what's going on in Hong Kong and with other minorities—and is exporting those values with other authoritarian states, that's a big problem.

That's why President Biden recently said that we're going to see that democracies versus autocracies is going to be the fight of the century, and we're seeing more and more countries waking up and realizing that the power of China is so immense that it picks individual countries and just targets them. In the case of Australia, it's banning Australian wine imports and beef. Now they're going after iron ore, Australia's biggest export. It's using targeted economic measures, as well as arresting citizens, to get its way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much—

[Kyle Matthews]

To me, that's a threat.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

—and thank you, Mr. Williamson.

We'll now go to Ms. Yip for six minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you to both of the witnesses for coming this evening, especially for the small sacrifices of a hockey game and a soft couch.

I'll direct my question to Ms. Wong.

In your opening statement, you mentioned that dissidents are not safe, not in Canada, and you have just told Mr. Williamson about your personal experience. Are their experiences similar?

[Cherie Wong]

Yes. We have some threats being made against [Technical difficulty--Editor] and also [Technical difficulty--Editor] humanitarian crisis in Hong Kong.

Recently, a Toronto Star article featured an individual who faced that death threats and reported it to the RCMP, and no action was taken.

These are very real harassment and intimidation tactics, but there are also intimidation tactics that are a little more subtle. For example, if someone went to a protest, their boss would ask them why they went to the protest, saying that if they went again, the boss might have to fire them.

It's not necessarily the boss being a Chinese state agent, but they're afraid that, in association, their employee who chose to side with Hong Kongers might anger Beijing and might threaten their business relations.

That is why I said that it is not safe for them at work and in civil societies, in academia and so many various sectors, because this kind of harassment and intimidation happens not only through explicit threats but also implicit and lateral surveillance and policing.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Recently the RCMP came to our committee and talked extensively about a 1-800 tip line.

Have you or the other dissidents had an opportunity to use that? Is that tip line even known?

[Cherie Wong]

As I do a lot of research into the sector, this tip line is known to me. However, no, our average community members do not know about this tip line, and many of them do not trust the tip line either.

Many of us have been sent from department to department. For example, I was sent from the Vancouver Police Department to the RCMP, to CSIS, back to Vancouver and all over again. Our community doesn't have trust in the policing agencies, because so many times we have reached out for help and they have let us down every single time.

We know that policing won't work on incidents such as your boss threatening to fire you in fear of Beijing, though that is foreign influence. That is not a criminal offence that could be charged by the RCMP or any policing department.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I'm very sorry to hear about your experience, as well as the experiences of your other co-dissidents.

At the committee, they also mentioned that there are increasing reports of investigations into foreign interference. Do you think there are more cases, or do you think the threat has always been present but now more people are more competently able to come forward because of maybe media attention?

[Cherie Wong]

Foreign influence from China has explicitly been happening since the nineties. Soon after the Tiananmen Square massacre, they realized that they needed to control overseas dissidents to ensure that there would be less resistance to the Beijing regime.

This has been happening for a very long time. It has increased in power since Xi Jinping has taken over, but it is deeply embedded in various sectors in Canada. It has to be looked at as a holistic issue and not an individual policy issue.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Where you find that the community cannot go to the police, I acknowledge that there is more work to be done, for sure. Would you consider that part of the grey area you mentioned in your report?

[Cherie Wong]

Absolutely. There are a lot of incidents of harassment where it doesn't qualify as a criminal offence. This is why we need external tracking and an external commission to deal with these types of grey-zone issues.

Foreign investment is not illegal either, but when a foreign actor is buying up large amounts of Canadian data, that is something we need to look at. We need someone who is not law enforcement, because they look at it from a black and white perspective. We need someone who is able to navigate the nuances and look at individual cases rather than a systemic issue.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

These behaviours are not covered by Canada's Criminal Code or any other legislation. Is that right?

[Cherie Wong]

Many of the activities are, but as the previous panel said, there are explicit death threats—and with the policing, nothing—so criminalizing these events obviously does not work. There are many activities that are outside of what would be considered a crime under the Criminal Code. For example, my family may get harassed after I have appeared here at committee, but that is not a criminal offence.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Do I have any more time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

You only have 15 seconds.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you very much for your answer, and I hope to hear more recommendations from you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Ms. Yip.

Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to thank our two witnesses, who I am glad to see again.

Ms. Wong, we met at the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

My questions are for both of you, and I invite you to jump in whenever you want.

First, in general, I'd like to hear from you about how organized the response is to your activities and activism.

What makes you think that it can't be something organic coming from small groups in civil society, but that the response is really organized by the state?

[Cherie Wong]

These operations are very well coordinated. In one of my previous submissions to CACN, we recorded a weekend of events that happened globally. Hong Kongers call for a globalized event. On August 6, we called for a globalized solidarity event, and from August 13 to 16, the days the event was held, people in over 10 countries were harassed. All of these protests were surrounded by pro-Beijing crowds who have almost the same slogans and almost the same posters. For some events, they even came with rubber pads ready for a physical altercation with the Hong Kong protesters.

I understand that we could say that they are exercising their rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I am only able to tell you what I can see, which is on the surface, but there are very large coordination efforts behind these operations, because you see them very prepared. We see businesses offering free meals after these protests. We also know that organizations such as the Chinese Students and Scholars Association and other United Front-associated groups would threaten individuals who did not show up or threaten individuals who dared to go and support the pro-democracy movement. It is a very coordinated effort. It's difficult to see, because a lot of these operations happen in Chinese, and it's through Chinese social media on WeChat and Weibo, so they are difficult to spot.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Since we're dealing with something organized by the state and they are state tactics, would a state response on our part be warranted?

Civilian groups here organizing against the Chinese Communist Party may not have the structure, the strength, or the resources to respond to the threats being made.

[Cherie Wong]

I think we do need a federal response, because we see this co-ordination not only happening in Canada; it's happening in our ally countries. We should create a multilateral response for this kind of question.

I think first and foremost we need to centre the needs around the community. Many individuals are coerced into participating in these pro-Beijing rallies as well. If they don't show up, their families will be threatened. If they don't show up, their scholarships will be pulled. I want to present that very human side, that CSSAs are mobilizing these activities. There are other United Front groups mobilizing these activities, but not all participants are really supporters of the regime; they are forced.