Evidence of meeting #28 for Canada-China Relations in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was respect.
A video is available from Parliament.
9 p.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual
The issue of enforcement was raised, most specifically in our second report, in that it was very clear that the RCMP was under-resourced, having—
9 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan
I'm terribly sorry, but I do have to interrupt, as we're over the six minutes.
Now we'll go on to Mr. Harris for six minutes, please.
9:05 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for joining us today and sharing your knowledge about organized crime, Dr. German.
In part 2 of “Dirty Money”, you refer to the Chinese crime groups allied with the Mexican and Middle Eastern crime groups and talk about their creating partnerships for different illegal enterprises and commodities, but then you go on to say—with emphasis:
In addition, there have been multiple reports of state actors operating in Greater Vancouver.
Then, in the footnote, it talks about “hybrid warfare”, describing “states working in concert with organized crime to achieve...objectives”, including “economic subversion and threat finance, in which a nation state conducts offensive actions through financial vehicles.”
Can you tell us what this is about? You just indicated that you didn't have much evidence of state action, but this clearly refers to multiple reports of state actors operating in Greater Vancouver. Could you tell us a little more about that?
9:05 p.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual
Right. Thank you. I'm glad you've read the report so thoroughly.
I think you'll find that those references actually refer to public source material that we have with respect to the move by the Chinese government to persuade people to return to China who have been involved in, or allegedly involved in, corrupt activity. There have been numerous reports of state-sponsored activity in an attempt to have these people return voluntarily.
9:05 p.m.
NDP
9:05 p.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual
Yes, I would assume it's prosecution.
Also, I think you'll find that it's pretty well documented publicly that China has made it very clear that it is looking abroad for those people who have been involved in illegal activity. However, again, that's illegal activity in China, so it is seeking these individuals who have essentially escaped its grasp. There's been a lot of controversy over whether these persons are really criminal offenders or are at odds with the political establishment.
Those comments are made in that context, involving those individuals and the criminality that they're alleged to have committed in China.
9:05 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
It's been suggested that some of the influence actually goes the other way and that it's possible that the Chinese state actors are influencing the money laundering or are in cahoots with some of this organized crime to inflate the price of real estate in Canada—and maybe this is far-fetched, and perhaps you can comment on that—to support the casino business and all this illegality.
Is there any evidence of that? Are you aware of these kinds of allegations? A recent book was just published about that. Is that something you have given any credence to?
9:05 p.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual
As I said in my answer to an earlier question, I can't personally talk with authority about a connection between state-sponsored activity in China and organized crime in Canada. I know that Mr. Cooper's book is out there. Mr. Cooper was heavily engaged as a journalist in what became my reports later on. He was very involved in and concerned about what was taking place in China. There were various reports on Global News, but there were also reports on other media outlets. It all led eventually to the “Dirty Money” reports and then to the Cullen commission.
He has done his own research. I have not read the book, so I don't know specifically what he's suggesting. I can't personally say that I knew of a connection, but I wouldn't expect that I, as an individual, would necessarily stumble upon that.
9:05 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
I'll turn back to let you answer your question about the RCMP being under-resourced. You were there. The National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians has reported in one of its reports that in fact the RCMP were so under-resourced from around 2014 on that they were focused on domestic terrorism, and files that were supposed to be dealing with organized crime, smuggling, and everything else were neglected to the point that we had this huge increase in money laundering in Canada.
Can you tell us anything about that?
9:05 p.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual
I would tend to agree with that, sir.
The RCMP made a conscious decision to abolish the proceeds of crime unit in 2013, as well as the commercial crime unit and the drug squad—a number of commodity-based units that had been around for many years—in favour of a new organized crime model. No sooner was that established than they also had to deal with the terrorism issue. On top of that, there's the issue of resourcing, of federal resources. That's more pronounced in the eight contract provinces, as opposed to Ontario and Quebec, where the RCMP are simply the federal police. I think these various factors contributed.
The RCMP, as I understand it now, has been given additional money in recent budgets to start the program up again. They're essentially redeveloping their financial crime program. There's no question that there was a gap. I've spoken about that numerous times. I've also mentioned it in “Dirty Money - Part Two”, and it has been a matter of public discussion.
9:10 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Do you think the Cullen commission is going to have a look at whether there is a Chinese government influence on organized money laundering in Canada, in B.C.? Is that part of their remit?
9:10 p.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual
I don't believe it's necessarily part of the remit. They've taken a fairly expansive view, but I do not know if they've gone that way at all. I'm not connected to the Cullen commission. I gave two days of testimony, but that's my only involvement.
9:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan
Thank you very much, Mr. Harris.
Mr. German, thank you so much. We very much appreciate your appearance here this evening.
Colleagues, that concludes the public portion of the meeting. I'll ask all colleagues now to log off this Zoom and log on to the in camera meeting, which will take a couple of minutes to set up. We'll see you shortly.
Thank you again, Mr. German.
9:10 p.m.
Liberal
9:10 p.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual
Thanks. I'm happy to answer any questions offline that you might have.
[Proceedings continue in camera]
