Canada-China Relations Committee on June 14th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Excuse me, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe. Please, wait until I give you the floor. When a point of order is raised, you have to wait for me to give you the floor to debate the point of order.

I will now give you the floor so you can debate the point of order and I will then give the floor to Mr. Oliphant, who also wants to debate it.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you have the floor.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. I apologize without hesitation and from the bottom of my heart. Because I am new, I sometimes forget procedure. I'm sorry.

In fact, I think my question is entirely related to the subject we are discussing today. As well, there was an exchange between the minister and my friend Mr. Genuis, who talked about the fact that there was a genocide happening in Xinjiang at this moment. If Canadians are working in laboratories where a foreign government is committing genocide, I think it is important to know whether the Minister considers there to be a genocide in Xinjiang, yes or no.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe

Mr. Oliphant, is it on the same point of order?

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Yes, Mr. Chair, I am in support of this as a point of order, which I think is duly raised.

It was actually not the committee who requested the minister to come before us for three hours tonight. It was a House order and the House order requested some very specific things for us to deal with today and it did not include.... I think the minister, to her credit, has answered appropriately with respect to the genocide, but I would ask that the chair ask the questioners to move on. I almost raised a point of order when Mr. Genuis was raising the issue. I let it go, but if it becomes the topic of the evening, I don't think we will be fulfilling the House order that we're acting under tonight.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Oliphant.

Mr. Genuis, on the same point of order.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes. Mr. Chair, the documents in question deal with questions of research co-operation between Canada and China. We know that in cases where countries have committed genocides in the past, there have been horrific experimentation and violence in the name of research that has happened to those who are victims of that genocide. I think it is squarely germane to clarify the minister's view about human rights violations that are taking place and for her to respond to whether or not she thinks it's appropriate for us be engaging in research co-operation with a foreign military that is involved in genocide.

We know about the horrors that happened to innocent victims in the past in the name of research in concentration camps of the past. We have concentration camps in China now. This is the question. I think it's duly raised and should very much be allowed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

The motion adopted by the House asks:

(c) the Minister of Health shall be ordered to appear before the special committee, for at least three hours, at a televised meeting, to be held within two weeks of the adoption of this order, to discuss the documents and the matters referred to in them;

I am therefore asking the committee members to talk about these matters.

I give Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe the floor and ask him to talk about the subjects referred to in the motion.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We have tried to get the answer we wanted to get, but we have been unable to.

Minister, since the start of the meeting, you have kept telling us that you sent the documents to the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians because the composition of that committee reflected the parties in Parliament.

Are you aware of the fact that the Bloc Québécois is not represented on that committee? Not one member from my party sits on that committee.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm sorry, but I can't speak to how the membership is composed.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

You said that the fact that that committee reflects the parties in the House of Commons had influenced your decision. The fact is that the second largest opposition group does not sit on the committee.

I don't understand your logic.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Again, that committee has the appropriate clearance to be able to review these documents in a way that protects Canadians' safety and national security. The documents have been provided to that committee fully unredacted.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Right.

In that case, I suggest that you stop using the argument that the committee represents all parties in the House. I am telling you that to help you make your argument, because that argument is false.

Some documents that were provided to the committee say that the Public Health Agency of Canada adopted a new scientific integrity policy in 2019.

Was that new policy adopted in reaction to the events surrounding Ms. Qiu and Mr. Cheng?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Again, I'm not at liberty to speak to those particular individuals due to privacy concerns and, obviously, the security issues that have been raised. The documents regarding their employment and departure are with the appropriate committee.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Right. Can you tell us why it was thought necessary to update that policy in 2019?

I did not talk about anyone. I simply want to know why...

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'll turn to the head of the National Microbiology Laboratory to speak to the policy development and—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

As Minister of Health, are you not capable of answering that question?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

We have here, as you know, the head of the National Microbiology Laboratory, who's responsible for our regular and ongoing review of policies at the lab. I'm not sure if the member opposite has ever been responsible for running an organization, but I have. I can tell you that policies are ongoing, reviewed by senior teams to make sure they reflect the needs of the organization as it evolves.

Dr. Poliquin, would you speak to the review?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I am not talking about the laboratory, I am talking about the PHAC, which adopted a new scientific integrity policy in 2019.

That is the Public Health Agency of Canada. Are you not responsible for that, Minister?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Luckily we have Dr. Stewart here to talk about the running of the Public Health Agency of Canada and the policies as they evolve.

[Iain Stewart]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you honourable member for the question.

It's normal and routine for the Public Health Agency of Canada to review all of its policies on a regular cycle. This is truly the case.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

My next question will be for Mr. Stewart or Mr. Poliquin.

We were told that the couple being escorted out had nothing to do with the fact that four months earlier, Ms. Qiu had been responsible for a shipment of the Ebola virus and the henipavirus to the Chinese Institute of Virology in Wuhan.

Do you still maintain that position?

[Iain Stewart]

Mr. Chair, and honourable member, I have written several times in letters to you, as well as in my previous testimony, that there is no connection between the two. Yes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

In the written answers you sent to the committee on March 26, you said that a number of review processes at the PHAC had been initiated in 2018 concerning possible breaches of security protocols at the National Microbiology Laboratory, or NML.

How many processes were initiated in 2018?

[Iain Stewart]

Mr. Chair, and honourable member, I don't believe I was before this committee on March 26.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, your time is up.

We will now go to Mr. Harris for six minutes, please.