Evidence of meeting #6 for Canada-China Relations in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tibetan.
A video is available from Parliament.
7:25 p.m.
Executive Director, Greater China Policy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
It's to mutualize, we often would say, a resolution to the grievances that is acceptable by both sides.
7:25 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you.
We think a lot about the human rights of people in Tibet, but I think there's an important distinction: to speak about the rights of people in Tibet and to speak about the rights of Tibetans as a people. I wonder if the Government of Canada views Tibetans as a collective, of having certain rights as a people, and if so, what those rights would be.
7:25 p.m.
Executive Director, Greater China Policy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Mr. Chair, that's an excellent point to raise because, as the committee knows, there's a large population of Tibetans living outside of the Tibet Autonomous Region, including in India.
The best way that I can put this is that our concern for the humanitarian, cultural and linguistic rights extends to the entire Tibetan population, no matter where it rests.
7:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I'm sorry, Mr. Steil. Could I direct my question a little bit? I wasn't so much referring to the broader diaspora community. However, when you speak about the rights of a people in their historic homeland, the implication is that they have rights that perhaps involve self-determination, that they have rights that are different from the rights of just individuals, that they as a people have certain political rights that are distinct.
Would you see Tibetans as a people in that sense of having particular rights that are distinct, maybe, from the rights of individuals vis-à-vis freedom and those sorts of things?
7:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Greater China Policy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
No, I don't think, in the sense of a political entity.... I'm just trying to understand the question a little more clearly. If it were to ask whether we recognized the Central Tibetan Administration or the government in exile as a separate political entity, then the answer is no.
7:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay.
Whether or not the CTA speaks for the Tibetan people is maybe a distinct question from whether the Tibetan people as a people have rights. I think the question's been asked and answered, and feel free to clarify later on if you wish.
I want to ask this as well. Does the Government of Canada have a specific position around the reincarnation issue—the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama—and the Chinese government's efforts to rule on a proposal that it would determine the reincarnation? Does the Government of Canada have a position? Has the Government of Canada made representations on those issues at all?
7:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Greater China Policy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Mr. Chair, I'm grateful that this particular question has been raised, because it's an area of preoccupation not only for Canada but also for many of our like-minded partners.
But the position, if I can articulate it carefully here, is that we support the right of the Tibetan Buddhists themselves to choose their leader.
7:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay.
Are we seeing any evidence of Buddhist suppression in Tibet similar to what we're seeing in Xinjiang?
7:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan
I'm sorry, Mr. Genuis. Thanks very much.
We'll go now to Ms. Zann, please, for five minutes.
November 17th, 2020 / 7:30 p.m.
Liberal
Lenore Zann Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Thank you very much, Chair.
Thank you very much, Mr. Steil. It's very interesting to hear your ideas about what is going on. I also would love to hear further about what life is like on the ground right now. Tibet has always been a country that I would like to go to.
Would you say that in the past 30 years, as far as you know, there has been large-scale migration of Chinese settlers to the Tibetan region? Also, have standards of living changed and become better for people in the TAR over the past decade?
7:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Greater China Policy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Again, to answer the question about the standard of living, we often have to refer to or rely on Chinese statistics for economic growth and development. By those measures, it's quite clear that economic standards of living have risen across the board.
Our reporting would suggest that this economic development over the last 30 years, or even less, has been unequally distributed. As I mentioned, there's a bit of a closed economic loop that happens there. I think, related to that, there's the issue of migration, the inward movement. Yes, I think even the Chinese population statistics would acknowledge that there has been an influx of Chinese citizens from other regions of the country, primarily ethnic Hans, moving into Tibet.
It's also difficult to determine exactly the numbers, too, because there's been a history of even government officials spending part of their time—their summers—in Tibet, in Lhasa, and then moving and having their families reside in Chengdu, in Sichuan, in the plains, where it's a completely different climate and situation. It's difficult to determine, according to the statistics, exactly how much in-migration there has been.
7:30 p.m.
Liberal
Lenore Zann Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Is it considered a vacation place? Is that why they go there? They have a place there and then then go back to work in the other part of China?
7:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Greater China Policy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I think it reflects the harsh realities of the climate at the top of the world and the relative economic development. Many have commented about the sparse landscape. It's a very high elevation region, where some people who are not well adapted to the low oxygen in the high elevation can have aggravated medical problems. Also, the level of entertainment and urbanization is lower than in other parts of China. I think it's a preference for some to spend some of their time in places like Chengdu.
7:35 p.m.
Liberal
Lenore Zann Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Thank you.
We've talked about some of the human rights issues. How many of the problems the Chinese have with Tibet, would you say, are because of religion versus ethnicity, or versus wanting independence? Obviously, we know that a lot of Communist governments do not believe in God, and they don't follow that kind of religion. I would imagine that they probably have a problem with Buddhism as well. How much of it is that and their fear of religion versus ethnicity or a desire for independence?
7:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Greater China Policy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Mr. Chair, I think religion is a particular target for the Communist Party in China. There's a long history of that. What we've started to see over the last several years is, I would say, both a Sinofication of religion and a “partyfication”, if I can say, of religion. There are signs of even.... I'll use the example here of the Central Asian minarets in the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region being torn down from mosques and replaced with Chinese-style pagodas.
But the more insidious part, I think, is the partification of it, including with Buddhism. There is a Buddhist association that is recognized and sanctioned by the Communist Party as the authority on Buddhism in China. Outside of that, there's no recognition, and we're seeing increasingly that party doctrine is becoming a requirement to be inserted into religious doctrine in all religions, including Buddhism.
7:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan
Thank you very much, Mr. Steil, for appearing before the committee today. I believe I can speak on behalf of all members in saying that we appreciate it very much.
We're going to adjourn in a moment.
Mr. Fragiskatos
7:35 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
I know that members are hearing your message of adjournment, and probably want you to get on with it. I would like to raise the idea with my colleagues that we collectively come together and agree to invite Ambassador Barton to the committee at a mutually convenient time. This would allow him to answer questions about his recent visit to Tibet, as we heard, the first visit by a Canadian official since 2015. The committee would really benefit from that. I want to put that idea forward, and perhaps we could decide on that tonight.
7:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan
We do want to get on to the other subcommittee meeting, but I will ask, is anyone opposed to that idea?
Mr. Harris, go ahead.
7:35 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
We are having a discussion about committee business, but I guess it is in order. I'm not saying it's out of order. Is that a motion for the committee, or are you just seeking consensus? I think we'd be interested.
7:35 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
I am seeking a consensus, first, yes. We should have it, but if we don't, I suppose we can introduce it as a motion.
7:35 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I think it's a great idea, and we should also give the ambassador an opportunity to give us other updates as he sees fit, and allocate a sufficient amount of time for all of the above.