Canada-China Relations Committee on March 20th, 2023

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Mr. Chan.

[Henry Chan]

On whether they are from the police station, I think it is very hard to say, as the previous witness said.

A lot of times we do see that this harassment and intimidation are not only about the police stations, but rather about a larger organization of the Chinese United Front Work Department, which coordinates these kinds of things on foreign soil.

I think that sometimes they're not even from the same place where it is conducted. They could be threatening your family elsewhere. That doesn't have to be done on Canadian soil. That can be done back in—

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Tell me what the nature of the threats are and whether or not you've reported them to the police.

[Henry Chan]

I have not received those threats myself.

What I've heard from other people, including the person I spoke about, is that those threats are like this: They would follow their family, their extended family or whatever. They would take pictures of them, send them to them and tell them to return. Their objective is to get them to return to China or wherever their homeland is. They take pictures of their extended family and send them to them in a way that is threatening them to return.

I think most of the time they're saying that if you don't do this, this and this, then something will happen to your family.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Do you know if they reported it to the police so that there could be a forensic trail?

I'll ask Ms. Fung that as well. I get threatening emails regularly. I get phishing expeditions all the time that are trying to get me to open things, but I've never felt threatened. People are feeling threatened. Have they reported them to the police? Have they been able to find out where they're from?

[Gloria Fung]

Yes. I have reported my case to the RCMP, because I believe this is not just about people making illegal threats in Canada. Unfortunately, the very first time I reported the counterprotests as well as my own personal experience to them, they said, “Oh, this is concerning foreign interference. You may have to approach Ottawa to get help from them.” It was not until last year, when the integrated national security enforcement teams of the RCMP were formed, that they really started to take it seriously.

Very recently, I had the chance to have a long talk with Ontario officers of the same team. I presented my experience as well as other people's experiences, at the same time providing evidence of such intimidation and harassment. They are now following up—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Ms. Fung, I'm sorry. We will have to interrupt at this moment. We do have to move on to our next questioner.

Mr. Trudel, you have six minutes or less.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being with us. It is very interesting to talk about their personal experience.

Ms. Fung, you have been the target of intimidation yourself.

Mr. Chan, you say that you have not suffered intimidation.

The report of the Fundacion Safeguard Defenders, which Ms. Harth represents today, is entitled “110 Overseas: Chinese Transnational Policing Gone Wild.”

That report says that as part of an anti-fraud campaign, the People's Republic of China says it has persuaded 230,000 of its citizens, worldwide, between April 2021 and July 2022, to return to the People's Republic of China to face criminal prosecutions. We are talking here about 230,000 people, which really is an astronomical figure.

My question is for both you, Mr. Chan, and you, Ms. Fung.

Are there people in your organization whom you know and whose story you can tell, people who were here in Canada and were persuaded to return to China?

How is it done? Where there threats, emails? Can you tell us more about this?

[Henry Chan]

With regard to the one I talked about in the testimony, when the threats were conducted he was actually in Saskatchewan. He later went back to China to sell off most of his assets. After he sold off most of his assets, he said that he had to give a significant portion to the government before he was allowed to leave the country again.

These are the kinds of things we're seeing.

[Gloria Fung]

I think the harassment and also the coercion for dissidents who return back to China have been a collaborative effort by both the public safety department or public safety bureau of China and the United Front organizations in Canada.

I'll cite you an example. One of the mainland Chinese dissidents I talked to has been under constant surveillance by CCP agents on Canadian soil. His family members have been shown photos of this dissident's family picture, and also showing him having dinner with his family in Toronto. He was totally shocked about this, because he thought he had come to a safe and free society. He didn't know that he was still under surveillance in Canada. He asked me why our government hasn't done anything to protect them from the Chinese Communist Party.

Actually, eventually, because he refused to self-censor, his brother got laid off. Then the parents of his wife, his in-laws, were put in jail. It shows the severity of this kind of coercion and also threats, intimidation and harassment of people in Canada.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

That is interesting.

You say that the government did nothing.

In your opinion, what could the government have done in this case to prevent people from returning to China?

[Gloria Fung]

I think that for a very long time Canadians didn't really know where to seek help whenever they were confronted with these kinds of foreign government threats, harassment and intimidation. I still remember some time early last year when we tried to find a number we could get in touch with, a hotline or maybe other ways of sharing the story with the RCMP and police.

Police definitely won't take care of these kinds of foreign interference cases, but still, I think the RCMP quite often previously were very slow in responding and quite often we are asked to provide evidence. But we all understand that it's really difficult for the people involved in these kinds of foreign threats and intimidation to provide very concrete evidence, other than their family members were being shown the photos and they also received phone calls like I did, but then Rogers and Bell refuse to provide the phone list to us, so there's no evidence we can produce.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

That is interesting.

I referred earlier to the 230,000 people worldwide who have been persuaded to return to China.

Apart from the personal stories you have told us, Mr. Chan and Ms. Fung, have your organizations recorded information about those people?

Do you know people in your organizations who have returned to China, and can you tell us how many? Were there 350, or 500, or 1,000?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Give a brief answer, please.

[Henry Chan]

I think for us in Saskatchewan, one of the things is that where I live there aren't that many Chinese people, and even so we've seen cases. I've talked to at least two or three who have these kinds of things, and this one was the most compelling, and that's why I decided to talk about it today.

Do you mind if I just take a stab at the previous question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Mr. Chan, no, perhaps you could incorporate your comments in the answer to another question—

[Henry Chan]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

—because it is time to go to Ms. McPherson for six minutes or less.

[Gloria Fung]

Yes, I've been working mostly with Hong Konger Canadians within our community—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

I'm sorry, madam, but we're going to Ms. McPherson now.

[Gloria Fung]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

All right. There we go.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It's very nice to know that our witnesses have so much to share with us. Thank you very much to both of you for being here.

What I'd really like to hear is some more information about some of the things I've heard from you, Ms. Fung, on the RCMP.

But before I do that, Mr. Chan, please, by all means, go ahead and take a stab at the answer.

[Henry Chan]

I think what I wanted to say in response to the previous question about whether the RCMP can do anything is that we're here to tell you there are no mechanisms to effectively counter these kinds of threats. That's why we're asking for a FIRA as the first step to counter foreign interference. There are probably other legislative tools we could use, but that is the first step for us to take.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Fung—