Canada-China Relations Committee on May 27th, 2024

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

That's not an answer on net zero. It's an answer to delivering affordable energy, potentially, but it's not an answer to net zero.

Now, what the IEA says is that the electricity sector will be the first to achieve net-zero emissions, mainly because of the low cost, widespread policy support and maturity of an array of renewable energy technologies. Electricity renewables are going to make up 90% by 2050 in the IEA's analysis. It's hard for me, I suppose, to take altogether seriously the role that natural gas has to play by 2050 if I'm looking at modelled costed numbers from the IEA and the answer back on your end on whether there's a business case is to say, “But we don't know.”

[Shannon Joseph]

I would point out that it's modelled.

When you look at what's actually happening in the world—how fast you can do renewables penetration, the availability of batteries that deal with intermittency.... You can't do that. I don't know. It's 25 years—

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Then you don't believe in a net-zero world.

[Shannon Joseph]

There can be a net-zero world. I don't believe in your description.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

There are two things.

First of all, when you both talk at once, it makes it impossible for our interpreters to keep up.

Secondly, Mr. Erskine-Smith, you are out of time.

Let's go to Mr. Bergeron for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It was quite hard to attend that meeting and not be able to speak. I'd like to thank my colleague Yves Perron for joining me for this meeting that deals more specifically with agricultural topics of interest, for which he is our party's critic and in which he is an expert.

I would like to go further with the question he asked Mr. Lansbergen about the fact that, in many cases, producers prefer to export their products rather than sell them locally.

First, what can be done to counter this situation?

Second, we know that a lot of products are consumed in Asian countries but we don't consume them here and they may be thrown into the ocean or simply thrown away. How can we further develop markets for products that are less popular in the west, but that may be very popular in the east?

[Paul Lansbergen]

Thank you for the question.

It's a difficult one.

Our sector is so fragmented and diverse, and with so many different species, that it's very difficult for us to come together to have a national marketing campaign, much like you see with milk, chickens or eggs. We're not supply-managed either, so we don't have a marketing levy that supports the marketing efforts.

Sometimes we rely on partnerships with some of the retailers to promote domestic products. Metro has a big presence in Quebec and markets Quebec products—you know, like produits d'ici.

When I see those flyers and in-store, I'm proud of them. We need more of that, but it's a whole supply chain issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron. That is your time, sir.

We'll go to Ms. McPherson, now, for two and a half minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to continue on with some of the questions my colleague Mr. Erskine-Smith has been asking of Ms. Joseph.

It's interesting for me, as well, to listen to this back and forth, because I was part of a delegation that went and met with the German government last year. They spoke about their desire for Canadian natural gas, but they also spoke about that as a short-term thing they needed to help with the crisis in Ukraine and the illegal invasion by Russia. It wasn't a long-term goal for them. Long term, they have much more interest in hydrogen and renewables, and much less interest in gas. However, building the infrastructure so we can actually develop those relationships over natural gas takes a very long time and is extraordinarily expensive. If we had it now, that would be one thing. Without it, I'm cautious about the idea.

You're Energy for a Secure Future, but it doesn't seem like you have as much openness to renewable energy and the various forms of hydrogen. How does this fit into energy for a secure future in the region?

I also want to point out that it feels to me as if we can't look at energy transition as a straight trajectory. There is going to be a difference in how renewables and actual clean energy come online. I agree with you that we need energy for the world.

I'm wondering if you could respond to that.

[Shannon Joseph]

I agree 100%. I've heard those same things from Germany.

Every country's approach to achieving both its energy goals and emissions targets is going to be different, and every country is starting somewhere different. I think we're very neutral as to how that's done. There are people within our network with a focus on hydrogen. There are people within our network with a focus on various types of energy overall.

I spoke a lot about LNG because I think it is the resource we have that has the capacity to meet the thing that is backstopping renewables now in Canada and internationally. That's something Robert Johnston from Columbia University has highlighted. It supports the transition.

LNG is something that people are signing contracts for into that time frame of 2050. Is it for our LNG or someone else's? Are they going to be looking for a baseload from other jurisdictions that are not us? Are they going to use more coal, which is what a lot of these countries have done, including Germany?

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Could we help them invest more in actual green energy and actual renewables that would help get those countries...and provide those opportunities for Canada as well?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

We will have to leave the answer to that.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I realize I am out of time. I have a short window.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

As the evening goes on, everybody gets more energetic. This is very good.

This is what we're going to do in the time remaining. We'll go to Mr. Kurek and Mr. Oliphant, and then back to Mr. Bergeron and Ms. McPherson to round it up.

Mr. Kurek, five minutes go to you, sir.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thanks very much.

Ms. Joseph, I really appreciate what you've shared here, because it's reasonable and realistic in terms of talking about an energy future that is based on what the world needs—not a pipe dream or a fantasy. I regret that quite often that seems to be what bleeds from other political parties across the aisle.

I want to ask you very specifically, when it comes to reducing global emissions, is there a case for Canadian LNG to be part of that solution?

[Shannon Joseph]

Yes. Because the world has been increasing its use of coal, and it's increasing its use of coal because it wants a high-volume, low-cost source of energy, the alternative to that, which has a lot of the same characteristics but half the emissions, is natural gas.

LNG from Canada would be made with some of the highest methane and some of the highest emissions mitigation. Many of the projects that are coming online are going to be electrified. The lowest emissions in how it's produced is going to displace these higher-emitting fuels, which these countries continue to use.

As I said, India has plans to double coal production by 2030, which is all for electricity generation. That means major emissions increases—much more significant than Canada's emissions—and we have to look at what role we can play in that.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

The way I see it, Canada can be left behind and the world's environment is worse off, or we can lead the world by making sure that we can get our energy to market.

Specifically when it comes to hydrogen, I think there's this misnomer that it's hydrogen or natural gas. Can you comment on that? It's not a binary thing, but it's hydrogen and natural gas. Could you comment on that quickly?

[Shannon Joseph]

It's absolutely hydrogen and natural gas. Some of the first hydrogen that's going to come on to the market and is starting to be developed in projects, including in Alberta, is blue hydrogen in projects that benefit from the carbon capture capacity, resource and geology, and can be exported as ammonia. That's an option that also exists in the east, if people want to pursue it. In eastern Canada, there are a lot of goals around green hydrogen and the use of wind to produce that.

There is no and/or, because the goal is more. What is going to fill that need for human access to affordable, reliable energy that countries are not compromising on?

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I appreciate that. “The goal is more” is a great message that I hope my colleagues are listening to.

I have one quick, final question, and then I hope to get to my friends at the Canadian Cattle Association.

Much of the tech associated with clean tech or green tech—however it is defined—is produced in jurisdictions with very poor environmental records. Are we accurately accounting for the emissions that go into the production of that technology?

If you can, answer in about 10 or 15 seconds. I'm sorry it's short.

[Shannon Joseph]

I don't think there's a lot of discussion about the supply chains and the environmental impacts, not just in terms of emissions but also in terms of water pollution, land and mining. There are a lot of environmental impacts associated with it.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I hate to cut you off, but let's just leave it there and say that more needs to be talked about.

This is for my friends at the Canadian Cattle Association. In the last minute or so, can you talk about the WTO and other trade challenges? Specifically, as a starting point for that, when the interim agreement with the U.K. was signed, one of your American counterparts' comment to me was that you all got screwed. This was at the same time that the Liberals were celebrating the accession of this agreement.

I'm wondering whether, in the last 60 seconds or so, you can talk about some of the trade challenges that exist and the role that the WTO can play in terms of helping to mitigate some of those challenges within your sector. Can you broaden it with your knowledge more generally as well?

[Tyler Fulton]

As I said, we've utilized the WTO dispute settlement mechanism. We have a precedent in one particular instance that we can and do reference when dealing with our trading relationship with, really, our largest partner. That's one scenario.

Another scenario is really addressing some of these challenges, these non-tariff barriers, right up front on initiation of these agreements and working, obviously, very much in part with our trade negotiators to ensure that our concerns are being heard and that we're really being represented in a fair agreement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Fulton and Mr. Kurek.

We'll now go to Mr. Oliphant for five minutes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I'm actually going to pass on my time. I've actually lost the thread of this as the Canada-China committee and particularly on the Indo-Pacific strategy. It has lost relevance for me at this point, and I'm just going to pass on my time.

Thank you.