Canada-China Relations Committee on May 27th, 2024

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Really, the idea is that it be long term. I would assume that there could be nothing but benefit in ensuring that other levels of government are able to access those same resources and build those long-term relationships.

[Tyler Fulton]

Yes. I think that's fair to say. I will say that it's very common to see disruptions to trade. It impacts different parts of the country differently. We really pride ourselves on being able to pivot to really optimize the situations and conditions we're dealt with.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

That's all for me, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson.

We'll now go to Mr. Perkins for five minutes or less.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm used to seeing you over on the other side in the fisheries committee.

For those who don't know, I represent one of the most important fishing ridings in the country, in my view—and I think it's statistically true—the south shore in Nova Scotia. Everyone who knows that will be shocked, I think, to learn that most of my questions here are for Mr. Lansbergen, who is a regular at the fisheries committee, where I'm a member.

Eighty per cent of what we catch in wild seafood is exported. Seventy per cent of what we consume is imported. That seems to be a strange combination that we all we all grapple with, but there is obviously a high demand in Asia for our seafood products and it has grown over the years.

I'd like to talk just a bit about that challenge on diversification, because as China in particular engages in buying up businesses in Canada and everywhere in the world, one of the ways that they're getting access to our seafood products is by buying up those who buy the fish from the fishermen, so that they can control where it goes when it's being exported. We have a particular challenge in Nova Scotia, where they also control the live seafood export facility at the Halifax airport, run by First Catch.

I'm just wondering. As one of the spokesmen for the industry that's so important, Mr. Lansbergen, how can we can diversify within the region when one particular member is actually doing an end run around it and trying to get control of the supply chain in Canada and we're letting it happen?

[Paul Lansbergen]

That's a very good question.

In terms of diversification, in our sector, more than many others, the customer-supplier relationship really is so personal. Others have talked about the long-term benefits of having an office in-country. Many of our bigger companies have salespeople in-country: in China, the U.S., Japan, Europe and other countries in Asia. We need to do that more. Some of it is through marketing agents as well. Some of our members are travelling months and months in a year to meet with their customers. I think that is really important.

On how we manage China or other companies, whether they be state-owned companies or not, how they buy up and invest in our industry needs to be balanced. Sometimes, regardless of how they're owned, companies are good actors. Others are not. We have to balance that with the rules that we have in place. The Canada investment act might not necessarily be good enough for our sector.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

You should know that we've changed, thanks to the amendments I made to the Canada investment act that have just been proclaimed. On the threshold for state-owned enterprises for countries that we don't have a bilateral relationship with, the threshold for review by Investment Canada is now zero dollars. In other words, every acquisition can get reviewed.

Were you consulted or was your organization consulted on the development of this strategy?

[Paul Lansbergen]

On the Indo-Pacific strategy...? Yes.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Do you see any of what the industry needs reflected in the strategy?

[Paul Lansbergen]

Really, I think the difficult part for us—because for agri-food, a lot of the strategy was driven by Agriculture Canada—is that seafood is a small part of the broader portfolio. We were very pleased to be consulted and to be invited to participate in the industry working group.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing, particularly in the international oceans, is a major issue, particularly in Asia. How is it possible to have a successful Indo-Pacific strategy if the countries from that region are breaking most international rules in their fishing in international waters and in what they do with that product?

[Paul Lansbergen]

To really tackle IUU fishing.... We recognize that there are definitely hot spots, much as you just said. It's multi-faceted, and it takes every country and certainly every major seafood-consuming jurisdiction to use multiple tools to address that, whether it be the port state measures act or other specific issues to really try to prevent IUU products from getting into the market.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Does the strategy address that at all?

[Paul Lansbergen]

I'd have to take a closer look, but I think it would be a minor part of the overall strategy because, again, seafood is a small part of it. There are other tools that governments have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins.

It looks like we'll have to have Mr. Lansbergen come back to our committee and have this discussion a little further then.

Let's go to Mr. Erskine-Smith for five minutes.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thanks very much.

I will ask my questions of Ms. Joseph. I want to get at the role of LNG in your view—and I suppose natural gas in general—not just in the short term but the long term. When we talk about a business case for natural gas, are we talking about it in the context of a net-zero world?

[Shannon Joseph]

Yes. Japan has very similar climate targets to Canada, as does South Korea. However, as I pointed out in my comments, those are countries that import close to 90% of their energy, and for them security of supply is a huge issue. While all of them are looking at diverse energy sources—like integration of wind, solar, etc., and the integration of hydrogen—the supply isn't there yet. Renewables need to be backstopped—

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I'm not talking about the next few years. Security in the short term is different from net zero in the long term, so when we think of a net-zero world by 2050, what role do you see for natural gas?

[Shannon Joseph]

I don't think 2050 is that “long term” away in terms of how fast energy systems change. Canada has increased its electricity supply domestically by 9% between 2005 and 2022. Some of these countries, as I mentioned, are just trying to get their societies electrified, period, let alone electrifying sectors that have never been electrified and maintaining affordability of energy, etc.

I don't think 2050 is the timeline for natural gas to not be needed. It's still going to be critically important, including for the integration of renewables.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

On that—this is not me saying this—the International Energy Agency has three different scenarios. It has a stated policy scenario, in which case we see an increase. If just the policies that are announced and are in place today stay, then we're going to see an increase in natural gas from 3,900 billion to 5,700 billion cubic metres by 2050. In the announced pledges—though the countries that have just announced their targets have to implement them—we see a slight increase and then flatlining all the way to 2050. We don't see a major increase to 2050, but this is what I want to ask you about.

In the net-zero scenario we see a 55% decline in natural gas demand. What do you make of that?

[Shannon Joseph]

I think that's a model of what a world could look like in one version of getting to net zero, and that's true for the Canada Energy Regulator scenario as well, but those scenarios also anticipate an overall decline in energy use, which we are not on track for, especially as, you know, the continent of Africa—

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

No, but our being on track to something is different from getting to net zero. We are not on track to getting to net zero. However, this is, I think, the core question: If we work towards a world that is net zero and are committed to that, what is the role for natural gas?

If you disagree with the IEA, it's not a 55% decline. What decline is it, in your view?

[Shannon Joseph]

I don't know what the number is. The number is going to depend on alternative sources of energy being available to countries to provide their populations with affordable energy, and until those other sources of supply ramp up, it's a guess. The IEA is guessing too.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

That's not an answer on net zero. Isn't that right? You're talking about practical—

[Shannon Joseph]

It's an answer on net zero talking about the things energy needs to deliver for people, and the IEA's projecting that. I don't have the answer to what the world—