Evidence of meeting #5 for Canada-China Relations in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was relationship.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
What are your thoughts on Hu Jintao being led away? Was it a message?
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
I don't know. My links with China watchers have come up with all kinds of conspiracy theories, and I have no idea. I'm not sure in the end that it's that important. It could have been a signal that times have changed, but it equally could have been that Hu Jintao was having a senior's moment and was just helped off. I have no idea. I don't think in the big scheme of things it's that important, quite honestly.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
How should Canada interpret the events of that particular meeting?
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
I think we have to recognize, as I said at the very beginning of my notes at the start, that we are entering a very critical period in world history wherein the position of China in the world is going to be of huge importance to our foreign policy. What I didn't have room or time to say is that we really need to focus our attention on building strong relationships with like-minded countries in Asia.
We need to set aside our now 30-, 40- or 50-year-old efforts to try to be friends with the Chinese Communist Party and recognize that our future in Asia is with fellow democracies or countries that are becoming democracies.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
In your opening statement, you indicated that there should not be any trade with China, yet you also recognized the fact that China is our second-largest trading partner.
Could you elaborate on your answer of minimalist transactions?
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
No, we have to trade with China. I'm sorry if what I said was not clear. We do, but I think that we shouldn't get too ambitious about it and we shouldn't let the thing go too far.
If you look at the nature of trade now, what we are selling China is what we were selling China in 1960. We're selling a bit more of it now, but all those fanciful thoughts in 1970s and afterwards that we might have Canadian businesses in China simply has not come to pass. I was travelling in China and talking to Canadians a great deal in the 1990s, and they all had very similar experiences. If they set up, their technology was stolen immediately, and they went out of business because a rival company would set up down the road doing what they did much more cheaply.
I think there are hardly any Canadian businesses operating in China now under Xi Jinping, who is down on private enterprise anyway. There are not going to be Canadian companies operating in China.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Thank you for your answer.
I'm moving on to Mr. Youde.
You wrote an article this year about COVID in China, and I'd like to quickly quote from it:
...the divergent experiences do lead to questions about why certain governments are more willing to increase restrictions in order to lower the number of COVID-19 cases. While there may be a tendency to ascribe the differences to cultural explanations...broader domestic and international political explanations need to be explored.
Could you provide more background as to what domestic and international political explanations need to be explored?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
We'll need a fairly brief answer, Ms. Yip.
Time has expired, but we should hear what you have to say, Mr. Youde.
Dean of the College of Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences, University of Minnesota Duluth, As an Individual
Sure. Thank you. I'll be brief.
I think there is a need to look at the domestic politics and the fact that we just had this big national party congress. That plays into it. We've seen historically, if we look at the response that China had to SARS, for instance, and on the geopolitical front, that we also have to look at the relationships that existed between, say, China and the United States and the way that these relationships became politicized. That had an influence on the sorts of relationships and the willingness to engage with international standards and international recommendations about the movements of goods and people during the pandemic.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Thank you for that, sir.
We'll now go to Monsieur Bergeron for six minutes or less.
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Manthorpe, you have heard through the media about the report by the international human rights organization Safeguard Defenders. According to this organization, three police stations established in the Greater Toronto Area are serving the interests of the People's Republic of China.
How do you react to these reports that are circulating? How do you think Canada should respond to the establishment of these police stations, if this turns out to be the case?
Liberal
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
Yes, I have, I'm afraid. I didn't get the translation. I thought I had turned it on, but obviously I hadn't.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
I'll tell you what; we'll reset the time, because Mr. Bergeron asked a very, very good question, I think.
Mr. Bergeron, can you say a few words and see if Mr. Manthorpe is getting the translation?
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
I thought all the sound tests had been done initially, Mr. Chair.
In any case, is the interpretation working well?
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
No. I'm not getting it, I'm afraid.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
There's a little globe at the bottom. If you click on that, it gives you translation.
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
Okay. I've got it now.
Let's try it again, please. I'm sorry. It should be fine now.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Mr. Chair and Mr. Manthorpe, can you hear the English interpretation?
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
I can indeed.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
That's good.
Mr. Manthorpe, you've probably heard the rumours in the media about a report by the non-governmental human rights organization Safeguard Defenders that unofficial police stations have been set up by China in the Greater Toronto Area.
First, what is your reaction to these rumours? Second, if these rumours are true, how should Canada respond?
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
Thank you very much. Yes, that is a good question indeed.
I think these rumours are indeed true. There were efforts a few years ago, and I think I referred to it in my book, when the consulate in Vancouver asked formally to be able to have Chinese police stationed in Vancouver to help and protect Chinese tourists while they were visiting Canada. It was obviously rejected, but they appear not to have taken the hint.
I think it is quite unacceptable, obviously, to have these sort of secret police stations established in Canada. I doubt very much it's just in Toronto. I would suspect they're probably also in Vancouver. The notion that they're simply there so that Chinese people can renew their driving licences and so forth is nonsense. That sort of thing is properly done through the consulate, if need be.
I think our law and justice systems need to root out these clandestine police operations and evict them. I think it should be as simple as that. We can't have other police forces running around in Canada, and not just from China but from anywhere else.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Mr. Youde, in a Center for Strategic and International Studies podcast, you discuss the influence of the People's Republic of China within the WHO, the World Health Organization. You highlight the role that the Canadian government or middle powers could play in convincing the People's Republic of China to give Taiwan enhanced status in the WHO, and to do so through quiet diplomacy in global health.
As alluded to in the opening remarks, you have probably heard about the rather significant difficulties that have arisen between Canada and the People's Republic of China in recent months and years.
How do you think Canada can play a useful role in strengthening Taiwan's position in the WHO and the acceptance of that strengthening by the People's Republic of China?
Dean of the College of Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences, University of Minnesota Duluth, As an Individual
Thank you for that question . It's an incredibly important issue.
It will be a challenge at this moment. That's just the absolute truth. The geopolitics are not really in favour of the sort of co-operative relationships that are going to be necessary in order to address any sort of future pandemics.
The potential upside is with these so-called middle powers—your Canadas, your Australias, and to some extent you can even look at Germany—but we can also look at some of the rising middle powers, some of the newly industrialized and democratizing countries, particularly in Asia, that might be able to have some degree of influence and be able to help lower some of the temperatures that exist, particularly when we're looking at the relationship between the United States and China.
The United States does not have the influence over China right now that would allow for a co-operative relationship. While there are definitely some incredible tensions that exist between Canada and China right now, they are probably more likely to have some sort of opportunity, particularly if it could be coupled with some sort of opportunity for scientific exchange, bearing in mind the same sorts of concerns that Mr. Manthorpe brought up about how that information that could be gleaned through these exchanges might then be used. That sense of transparency, that sense of trust and that opportunity for engagement are going to be key and be something that the middle powers—the countries like Canada—have an opportunity to accomplish far better than, say, the United States would have.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Youde.
Mr. Manthorpe, last August, the Prime Minister announced his intention to create a special team to combat Russian disinformation and propaganda.
Charles Burton, a former counsellor at the Canadian embassy in China, asks why limit ourselves to Russia. He says the Chinese propaganda campaign, which includes conspiracy theories promulgated by pro-Beijing Chinese-language media in Canada, threatens our democracy, and has already cost Chinese-Canadian MPs seats in the last election.
This strikes me as an extremely weighty statement. So I ask you, Mr. Manthorpe: why limit ourselves to Russia?