Canadian Heritage Committee on May 1st, 2008

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

At the risk of getting into a debate with you, the reason I raised the question is that the question was raised with me by people in that industry. They were envisioning that in fact, contrary to what Mr. Stursberg has said, there is a decline.

Be that as it may, I want to touch very quickly on BitTorrent. You used it to broadcast the final episode of the Next Great Prime Minister series. How do you see it fitting into your future plans? What role do you foresee for these applications or new types of media as far as within the stable of CBC actually getting its programming to people? Where does BitTorrent, where do these applications, where does new media, all fit?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

I will ask Richard, please, to answer that question.

[Richard Stursberg]

What we know for sure is that the way in which people will consume television products over the course of the next little while is going to change. We've been doing a lot of different things about television products. The BitTorrent thing was simply one example, but I can give you others. We right now have a deal with iTunes for video. What we do is we put up our different shows, whether it's The Tudors, Little Mosque on the Prairie, or so on and so forth. Anyone can download them for a price and they can watch them.

Interestingly, although this is still a relatively modest service--a lot of this is very new, actually downloading television shows onto your computer--our show The Tudors is actually the most popular of the shows that are currently being downloaded.

I don't doubt for a second that we will go much further in this direction. Ultimately what we want to be able to do is make our shows available to Canadians in whatever way they find most convenient. We'll move further into video on demand, further into pay per view, further into download to own, in one variety or another.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Ms. Fry.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you very much. I want to thank you for coming, because, as you know, following our report there was a real sense that we needed to hear from you with regard to how you are responding to the report and how you plan to implement some of the things in the report on your side.

I note in your opening remarks that you talk about the urgency of the government to implement the report and put in place the MOU. I agree with you on that. I think it's a pity this hasn't happened sooner, or at least that it has not been responded to yet by the government, but in the MOU there are going to be requirements for the CBC to be accountable. So I want to ask you a question about something we flagged in our report based on the Auditor General's report with regard to the six areas in which you were required to develop performance indicators. If you notice, there is a recommendation with regard to performance indicators in the report, so hopefully, as we deal with the MOU, we can get something from you.

I'd like you to respond as to why those indicators were not developed. Do you plan to develop them as part of your accountability structure? Why is it so difficult and different to have English and French radio and television reporting on performance indicators? Perhaps you could explain why that is.

My colleague, Bill Siksay, has already asked my second question in regard to the CBC Radio Orchestra in Vancouver. I must say that while you have met your mandate by now focusing on regional orchestras on the radio, it certainly puts people like me, in Vancouver, who will have to support our own orchestra, in a difficult position. But I suppose that's how it has to crumble.

I also want you to answer me the other question. You said in your report that you wanted to enable CBC radio to evolve as a critical cultural institution in this country. I believe that in order to do that you have to not only have a national reach but you have to have a regional reach in which we can represent Canadians to each other in every region.

During our review we heard from witnesses in many parts of Canada who said they were not receiving CBC radio, that that reach was in fact being cut back. Why is that happening? I understand it's about infrastructure and the need to have infrastructure, so can you tell us what are your infrastructure needs in order to achieve that?

Thank you.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Madam Fry, thank you for the question. Let me go to the second part first. Let's talk about expanding radio service into different communities.

As you know, and you alluded to it in your report, Mr. Rabinovitch showed up here with his management team--the key guys being around me--and told you as a committee that it was really an important aspect of our lives to try to expand radio service to the 8 million Canadians that we could reach in adding our services into about 15 different communities.

There was a cost to that plan, $25 million in infrastructure, $25 million in operations. He told you about this, and in your wisdom you identified this as an important need, but you didn't make a recommendation on its funding. So I assume, if this becomes a priority in the MOU, that we would go down and have negotiations with the government. If this became a priority, the extra funding would go, to use your suggestion, to $40 per capita, and we would use those dollars. If this were considered a service area in which the government would want us to invest, this is what we'd do. So it is a priority.

Right now, Madam Fry, with the dollars we have, we can't expand this without making serious indents into what we have as services.

You talked about accountability. You talked about the performance indicators. We are working on this right now. As a matter of fact, we talked to our internal auditor yesterday, with our CFO, in terms of measuring it and continuing to do this. This is important. I believe in performance indicators and tools of measurement. We are going to get there.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

In English and French?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

In English and French.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Why is it that in English and French it is so difficult?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Simply, from what I understand, the way we report costing--and we're working on this also--the English services and the French services simply don't have the same reporting system. So we're trying very hard to make sure that the information is easier to compare and easier to report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Malo.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Mr. Chairman, Ms. Mourani has some supplementary questions to ask the witness.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm going back to the Access to Information Act. It states that you must make the manuals available to the offices so that the public can consult them. I was told that your website is in a way your physical location and that it could be accessible to the public. On that site, there's very little opportunity to get an enormous amount of information, in view of the fact that you have a lot of manuals. It would be virtually impossible to put all that on the Internet.

On the one hand, do you intend to find ways to adjust that? On the other hand, in the March 18 issue of La Presse, it was reported that someone had made an access to information request and had to wait six months after the initial request before the documents arrived in a used sport shoe box. Do you have so little money at Radio-Canada?

My third question again concerns that article. I'll jump to another theme, expense accounts. Reference was made, among other things, to Mr. Rabinovitch's expense accounts. It talked about reimbursements for limousines without invoices, invoices for $4,000 for five nights at a hotel and $7,500 claimed without an invoice. There was also talk about other individuals, not just Mr. Rabinovitch, in the Journal de Montréal, among others.

I would like to know whether you are going to travel by limousine and if we should expect equally enormous expenses, not just on your part—I don't know your current expenses—but on the part of various CBC/Radio-Canada executives? Can we expect a little more restraint?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Mr. Chairman, Mr. Malo was right to say that Ms. Mourani had a lot of supplementary questions to ask me. Allow me to try to answer them quickly.

With regard to the physical location, your question is very specific. I don't have the answer, but I'll be pleased to do a follow-up for you to determine what kind of environment we offer our people.

Second, as regards the March 18 article, I believe someone gave the Journal de Montréal some information that didn't come from us and didn't come out of a shoe box. I assume instead that it's someone who took advantage of the information to fuel the story in question. In any case, that's what I understand from what happened.

As to the expense accounts, it's obviously very important for us to be absolutely transparent and reasonable in the use of public funds. That is not a problem. We moreover have internal policies. We've made changes in the normal course of the review of our policies on the way we'll examine expenses that are made in the normal course of conducting our business and travel. We expect the policies in place to be complied with. The people you see here are now responsible, under the new structure, for examining the expense accounts of people who report directly to them. I believe that transparency is key.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Are these new policies?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

In the normal course of the annual review of our policies, every time we can improve, it's a pleasure for us to do so. That's what we're implementing. It's easier to document expenses with the new system. With the policies, we're continuing to improve documentation, and it will be even clearer and more readily accessible.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I'll give you an example. In the House of Commons, we're currently asked to submit restaurant receipts in addition to the little coupon we're given when we pay by credit card. I've obtained documents—that I won't table—through the Access to Information Act that show that many people submitted Visa or MasterCard receipts and that it couldn't be determined why a meal was taken or whether there were three or four persons involved. It couldn't even be determined whether there were two or three courses. These were only receipts that could sometimes be for $250 or $700, and so on.

Is that also among the changes to your policy?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Yes. Ms. Mourani, we now have forms in which you have to explain with whom you ate and where you went. We intend to hide nothing. We want to be absolutely transparent. From now on, that information will be increasingly available on our website. It is at the moment, but it will be even more detailed and clearer so that people understand how we travel and what we do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We've reached the time limit.

Mr. Fast.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to join Mr. Siksay in voicing my concerns about the reduction in classical music programming on CBC Radio 2.

I fully recognize that CBC is a crown corporation. It's at arm's length from the government. I understand that the role of this committee is not to interfere in your day-to-day operational decisions. I don't believe that's the role of our government either. However, we do individually, as members of this committee, represent constituents in our own ridings, and I'm going to share with you some of the concerns they've raised with me.

Abbotsford is my constituency. It's a wonderful city, a musical city. In fact, it may surprise you to know that in the last five years of Canadian Idol, four of the finalists came from Abbotsford. I believe that every one of those finalists, whether it was Greg Neufeld, Shane Wiebe, Jacob Hoggard, of Hedley, or Karen-Lee Batten, each one of them had their roots either in classical music or in choral music. Of course, now they've gone on to other genres of music, whether it's country, pop, or rock.

I'm concerned about how we're going to judge your decision to scale back the classical music offering on Radio 2. I'm going to be very concerned that over the years, if we continue on that path, fewer and fewer Canadians, first of all, will develop an appreciation for classical music, and fewer Canadians will have an opportunity to become interested in classical music to the extent of developing their skills so that they can become skilled in other forms of music as well.

So my question is direct to you. How will you judge? Upon what standard will you be judged as to the success or failure of your decision to axe the CBC orchestra, as well as to scale back the classical music offerings on CBC Radio 2?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

There are two different things here. First off, we can't actually judge—to use your word, sir—the axing of the CBC Radio Orchestra. What we can do, though, is show Canadians and make them hear what the priorities and the investment of the dollars that used to go to fund this orchestra will do to classical music in this country, by exposing Canadians to other symphony orchestras in the country. That's what we will do.

If I can come back to a few things I said a few minutes ago, what's important to us is to make Radio 2 an incredible showcase of Canadian talent in different genres of music.

I can't emphasize enough the fact that classical music is not going away. On Radio 2, it's still going to be the most important and the most played music on that network, but it will share the airwaves with other genres of music so that we can better reflect and open it up to Canadians across the country in different genres of music. So I think that's really important.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Could you not have achieved that same goal by perhaps establishing another channel for these additional music offerings? We presently have CBC Radio 2, which offers mostly classical music programming, and I think by your own admission there's going to be less of that available to the public, at least on CBC Radio 2.

First, were there other options that you looked at? Secondly, what consultation process did you go through to arrive at this decision? Were stakeholders in the classical music industry consulted along the way?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

I know Richard wants to make a comment in regard to Radio 2.

[Richard Stursberg]

This change in strategy for Radio 2 has actually been the subject of studies and consultations that date back three years.

I have to tell you, I'm relatively new to radio. I became in charge of radio at the end of November last year, but I followed this--when I was in charge of television--and then looked into it in considerable detail when they asked me to worry about radio as well.

I have to tell you, I think this was certainly the most far-reaching consultation that I've ever seen in terms of a shift in CBC strategy.

I will just say a couple of other things. One is having access to classical music. As the president said, it will continue to be on Radio 2, but as he mentioned earlier on, the other thing we're going to do is we're going to put up a full classical music channel. It will be on the Internet. It won't be on the airwaves.

Now it's interesting that if you look at the consumption statistics for radio in North America, approximately 11% to 12% of all consumption of radio is now online, and that obviously skews very heavily by age. So if you were to look at a younger demographic, they're going to consume way more of that stuff online than an older demographic, and that is increasingly the case.

But I would say one other thing: one of the facts that made an enormous impression on me was that in Canada we release about 30,000 pieces of music a year, and of those 30,000 pieces of music, only 240 get commercial airplay. So there is a kind of vast musical landscape that you really can't hear. You just can't hear it. It's not made available, and that seems a shame.

So this shift in strategy is not meant in any way to denigrate classical music. Everybody understands the centrality and importance of classical music to the musical tradition in Canada. It's rather to open up for Canadians all the rest of the music to which they have so little access.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you. We move now to Mr. Scarpaleggia.

We do have another full hour. It seems that what happens is people ask questions, and then when it comes to about two seconds left to ask a short question, they ask a long one, which requires a long answer. That runs us a little over time.

So please try to organize your questions and answers a little better.