Canadian Heritage Committee on May 1st, 2008

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I'll try that, Chair.

I congratulate Mr. Fast on pursuing this line of questioning. By the way, Mr. Fast is an accomplished pianist, as a matter of fact, and is very interested in musical tradition and so on.

I've noticed the change in the mix on Radio 2. I drive a lot, and it's getting to the point where if I'm looking for classical music--and I don't listen to it that much, but if I'm looking for it, I'm getting to the point where I'm saying maybe Radio 2 is not the place to go, because it's hit and miss. I'll get lounge music on a Sunday afternoon and then I'll get some jazz or whatever.

So I'm starting to think--in the Montreal area--is there another station I can go to and know that I will get classical music? Right now, I don't think I will with the same degree and depth of analysis that I would on Radio 2. So I'm not there yet.

I'm just wondering, if you make the mix too broad--in marketing terms--are some people going to say...? You know the demographic or the psychographic--or whatever you want to call it--that listens to singer-songwriters is not the same as the one that will necessarily listen to jazz or blues or classical. Is there a possibility that you will get to the point where some people in major markets that have classical music radio alternatives will just disengage from Radio 2, so you'll find your numbers falling? Those who like pop more may just stay with commercial radio, and then you'll be back here saying your audience is only 1% now. From a marketing perspective, is that possible?

Secondly, are we getting to the point where--going back to Mr. Coderre's initial point, which is that CBC is a company, but it's not Proctor and Gamble--we are doing too much segmentation? Of course, I'm referring to the Claude Dubois incident. I was driving to Ottawa that night and I was listening to the broadcast on radio, and it was fabulous. You reserved a portion for Mr. Dubois and some interpretation of his songs in French. When I came to the House of Commons the next day and I heard the complaints, I said, “What are you talking about? I listened to it and there was a great mix.” But on TV there wasn't.

I would just like your general comments on those two points.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Absolutely. Again, Mr. Chairman, there was all sorts of stuff in a couple of minutes of questioning. Let me try to take them one after the other.

Depth and analysis of your experience in Radio 2 in classical music--that's what we're trying to replicate in other genres of music. That's what we would like to make sure all Canadians get, not only classical music, but other genres. That being said, you know that from 10 to 3 every day you will get classical music, as you are getting now--weekends, afternoons, Saturday afternoon at the opera for years and years, and there is another classical show on Sunday afternoon. So you know where to find classical music. I would be very disappointed should you choose to no longer listen to CBC Radio 2 because at that particular time there is no classical music. I would like to think all Canadians would open up and see and hear how great this showcase about Canadian music will be. That's the music part.

Let's talk about Claude Dubois for two seconds. Yes, I could come back and give you all the reasoning behind the programming decisions that came from taking three hours and 24 minutes, or whatever the show was, and summarizing it into 44 minutes. I can tell you the programming decision that Sylvain Lafrance at Radio-Canada took when he chose not to take this out. The bottom line is, at the end of the day, when you look at that particular show, Richard wrote to the world and said, you know what, we could have done a better job at reflecting--

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I don't want to spend too much time on that. I want to get back to my first question, which you didn't quite answer. The depth of analysis of popular music, jazz, is fabulous on CBC. My question is, is the classical music listener in the major markets going to say he's not available 10 to 3 on that day, and if he wants to have a regular stream of classical music and doesn't want to listen to it on his computer--he wants to listen to it in the car or on the kitchen radio--have you thought of the possibility that this listener in a major market like Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver, will find a good private classical music radio station, just hook up with that, and be lost forever by Radio 2?

My last question is this, and I know there are a lot of questions, and I think Mr. Fast asked this. If you had more money--I understand your fiscal constraints, and I think you should have more money--would you create a separate radio station for more popular music?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Let me say one thing before Richard and Sylvain, who want to add to my answer.

Let's talk about money for one second. It's not simply a question of dollars, because the question of dollars has to be.... I go back to the MOU because that's really important, as Madam Fry said a few minutes ago. The MOU is central to us going forward. If the MOU stated in broad ways the services that your CBC/Radio-Canada was going to deliver, and we hooked those services to the dollar impact, then priorities would fall and we would then decide what it's all about. So it's not simply about a particular action or inaction. It's about the CBC serving all Canadians.

I know my colleagues want to say something. Let's try Richard for two seconds on programming.

[Richard Stursberg]

First of all, just on whether we could build another FM radio network, the answer is probably not. The struggle just to get FM licences right now in the country is enormous. We're trying to get our AM station in Vancouver onto an FM frequency because all over Vancouver you can hardly hear it now. This has proven to be an enormously complicated and difficult undertaking. We're hopeful that will all be resolved shortly.

I would just say to your bigger question, one of the things that's very striking.... We did a lot of market research around the shift in Radio 2. One of the things that became clear when we looked at the audience for Radio 2 is that it was getting progressively older and older. Part of the difficulty is that in the past people used to say that eventually people will grow into the CBC. It wasn't happening. People in their fifties were not coming to Radio 2. People in their forties were not coming to Radio 2. So we thought to ourselves, as a matter of public service, that we were going to have to broaden this.

My strong impression to your question is that this will allow us to reposition Radio 2 in a way that will serve the Canadian musical community better and grow the audiences more than if we stuck with the strategy we had in the past.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I'm sure you will, because you'll have more genre and you'll bring in more music.

[Richard Stursberg]

Yes, and that would be good, so I'm not too worried about losing audience, the way you implied.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Is there another response?

[Sylvain Lafrance, Executive Vice-President, French Services, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation]

Since you asked the question about Montreal radio, I'll take the liberty of answering. The issue of a new classical music or other network, for example, isn't a matter of money but rather of frequency. I agree with my colleague: it's not easy to get cross-country FM frequencies.

I'm a radio bum; that's why I've seized the opportunity to address the subject. I'm especially familiar with the world of radio. In that world, the biggest problem, given current trends, is the loss of musical diversity. It's dramatic. We always hear the same songs, always in the same places. We don't hear any new artists from different cultures; nor do we hear a lot of up and coming artists or those from the regions. There's an enormous problem of musical diversity on Canadian airwaves.

That's all the more true in Montreal, in French, because it's a more restricted environment. So this is an enormous problem that is generational to a certain degree. The radio stations' biggest competitors currently aren't other radio stations: they're iPods and other devices that let you listen to the music you like. Today, in the radio world, you have to create real diversity, real surprise, and introduce the public to all Canadian artists from all genres and from all regions. We won't be able to create 60 stations representing six genres. We have to operate in such a way that our radio is really an open door to all Canadian creation. I'm absolutely convinced of that.

To answer your question about marketing, I will say that the example of Espace musique in Quebec is relevant. The network has expanded considerably since they opted for a multi-genre format. Today, audiences are ready to discover musical genres that they were previously not interested in. That's what the Espace musique experience is showing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

No one listened to what I said before, because we almost went twice as long.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

I said we'd give you a gold star, Chair, and we will.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

But I think the answers were good.

I'm moving now to Mr. Chong. Try to stay within the realm. We still have three-quarters of an hour, but please try to keep your questions short.

Thank you.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to talk about a couple of things today. First I'd like to comment on the decision about Radio 2. There are problems with that decision. First, you're hemorrhaging your core audience. When I heard of this decision I immediately thought of Coke's decision in 1985 to get rid of its product and replace it with something new. Yes, it was kind of the same and had the same basic ingredients, but then it backfired. They had to reverse their decision because a lot of people identified with that product, and they alienated their core audience. I think that's partly what's going on here.

If you're trying to highlight some of the new songs and works that artists create in Canada each year and have them appeal to a younger demographic, then logically you would be putting this online through streaming audio, as opposed to on the FM band. The FM band probably attracts a much older demographic, versus the younger demographic, which is much more apt to use the online streaming method. From that second perspective, it doesn't make any sense.

Another point is if you want to highlight a greater diversity of music, you should have a third station on the FM band. If there's no room, governments and agencies should make room. Every other public broadcaster in Europe has more than one or two stations. They have numerous stations.

We don't think big here. We end up doing things in half measures, and I think that's the corporation's biggest problem. Over the decades it has whittled away to nothing, and it is becoming increasingly irrelevant. I don't blame you for that, but I'm telling you that's the reality. I think it's partly because of a lack of funding and partly because of programming decisions like this that alienate your core audience. In the attempt to diversify your programming, you alienate your core audience and make yourself even weaker than the weak position you find yourself in.

Those are the points I would make on the Radio 2 decision.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Yes, I understand that is your point of view. Do you have a question for me, sir?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

My question is if you could tell the committee, which you haven't, what plans you put together with respect to expanding radio coverage throughout southwestern Ontario, throughout south central Ontario. What sorts of plans or proposals has the CBC put forward to expand Radio One in the southwestern Ontario market?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

That is something that was part of the plan, and you might be referring to Hamilton.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Kitchener-Waterloo, Hamilton, Barrie.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

We understand we have an issue with radio coverage. That was my answer to Madame Fry. We have a plan we suggested here, referred to in the memorandum to expand radio service, because—you're absolutely right—there are some really important communities in Canada that don't get Radio One, that actually don't get our signals. And that was part of the 25 plus 25 plan that you referred to in your report, that didn't link to a particular funding in the recommendation. But if that were held as an important service that the government would like us in the context of an MOU to focus on, that would obviously become a priority.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Have you received the funding for the 25 plus 25?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

No, there has been no indication of that. It is one of the recommendations without the funding link that comes out of the report that this committee worked so hard on.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

How much do you think the decision with respect to Radio 2, the classical station, is linked to the fact that you don't have the wherewithal or the ability to create a third FM station that would highlight some of the new genres, the new music that's out there?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

When we look at the Radio 2 decision and the services we have right now and the constraints and the dollar limits we are playing with, we think the best way is for us to expose the Canadian music that Richard was referring to in the same context as we did with what Sylvain spoke about a few seconds ago, which is Espace Musique. We think the best way for Canadians to listen to new genres of music without affecting.... And I respect the love and the passion of the classical music supporters. They have been very vocal. I know they're there. They're disappointed, but we are trying to tell them they've got to share their airwaves with other people. We will give them more through different services we do. That's what we're trying to do at Radio 2.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Can I just rephrase the question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

No, you can't. Time's up.

Mr. Siksay.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm struggling a little to understand the impact of the change at Radio 2. Do you have audience numbers since the changes began at Radio 2, and can you tell us what is happening, with some clarity?