Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 9th, 2009

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

First of all, I want to say thank you to the minister for taking the time to come to the committee today and share some of his views.

As we go across the country in some of these tough economic times, I and many of the other MPs around this table will appreciate the fact that the government does have to make choices, does have to take serious consideration in regard to seeing what programs are effective and provide the most efficiency. You were talking about the Trade Routes program, the cost of delivering the program being $5 million and having a $2 million benefit. I can tell you there are a number of people who did see advantages in that, and that $2 million also did provide substantial investments.

So you went across the board, did the analysis of the programs, made the $45 million in cuts. When programs like Trade Routes or PromArt were cut, what types of programs have you put in place in your new program investments to help these new emerging artists and other artists who utilize these particular programs?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I appreciate the question. I have to confess, when I went across the country and I visited with different and varying arts and culture groups, the needs of our artists internationally are quite wide and varied. For some it's just straight support in order to get them into other markets, for sending them and their instruments overseas, their plane tickets, shipping, and so on. For other industries, for example, on museums, they need support from the government with regard to insurance. So if they're going to have exchanges of collections, they need the government to support them with the insurance costs.

We have a small domestic market--linguistically fractured. We are excelling in arts and culture in this country, and in order for us to really succeed--

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

What types of programs are put in place?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

We're doing a number of things. Of course we've increased spending for the Canada Council, for arts and culture, and we're helping them abroad by $13 million.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

And that will provide the opportunity for Canadian artists to go across internationally?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

In some cases it will, but not entirely. We are continuing to work with arts and culture groups to make sure the needs they have are going to be taken care of.

You asked for programs. We have $1.9 million for Telefilm, $1.8 million for Factor/Musicaction Canada, $900,000 for the National Film Board, and $4.8 million for the Association for the Export of Canadian Books. These are programs.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

It would be very helpful for all committee members, because we are inundated with e-mails and phone calls from people who did utilize both of these programs across the country. It's great to have the dollar values, but people want to know that on the ground they're going to get access to the funding, to the resources they need to ensure that they're able to go out there and perform if they are actors or actresses. There were comments made in September 2008 by one of the spokespeople for Minister Emerson who said that individuals like Gwynne Dyer and Avi Lewis should not be entitled to taxpayers' money. These are people who have done a great amount as writers and made great contributions to Canada. People on the ground felt, and continue to feel, that some of the cuts that have been made have been made not for the purposes of efficiency, but actually have been made against people or organizations that spoke out against the government. I think that is an issue that needs to be addressed to ensure that the cuts are not based on ideology but are being made in the best interests of improving efficiency and effectiveness for the organizations.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Of course they're not. We're spending $21.6 million in these funds that I just described. That's more than any government in Canadian history, more than ever before, to support artists on the international scene. We've increased the budget for the Canada Council. The criticisms that you described about whether these cuts are ideological in terms of who gets them.... I don't decide who gets money from the Canada Council.

The Canada Council is arm's length, independent of the government. We've increased their budget by 17% to $181 million this year. This is an independent organization of artists helping artists, and who they give their support to and who they finance internationally or domestically with their needs as artists is entirely arm's length from the government. So the idea that somehow we're picking and choosing these things is of course not true.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I'll ask this very quickly, because the chair tells me that I have about a minute left.

Mr. Angus was talking about the National Film Board having levels of about $67 million at one point, whereas it used to be $81 million. I think the prize for Canada may be in some respects a good decision, but our Canadian artists and talent do need to be promoted internationally.

When you take a look at this year's nominees for the Oscars, there is not one single Canadian artist. I think that shows a failure within our system to promote these individuals. You have organizations like the Canadian Independent Film & Video Fund, which had a budget of $1.5 million and stimulated investments of almost $20.4 million. They had a great benefit and impact. Their program wasn't restored. It wasn't replaced. We have to do as much as possible, regardless of which government is in power, to ensure that those artists get the resources and support they need.

Also, Mr. Minister, with all due respect, cultural attachés are incredibly important throughout the world to build bridges and to improve and enhance relationships with other countries.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I certainly don't disagree with you. DFAIT continues to have services and investments to support artists internationally. They continue to have services in embassies. Spending over $2 million a year in salaries for cultural attachées in cities, frankly, whose economies may not be in great shape, where our artists may not want to go, and where there may not be value for Canadian artists is a kind of static investment, and it isn't the way to go.

I would just end with this, because I think we have to go to the next person: stay tuned with regard to the idea of the $25 million one-time investment for prizes. It will benefit Canadians greatly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Pomerleau.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for having come to meet with us and to share your comments regarding the new year, the investments that you will be making and their impact on the budget.

This is the first time that I am really sitting in the committee. There was another sitting, but it was spent on operational issues. This is the first time that we are receiving a witness, and this first witness is also the most important one. I am astonished to hear you say that in the entire history of Canada, your department is the one that invested more in culture than any other department did. I am thinking of the actions of the artists in Quebec during the last elections. There was a hue and cry that was unprecedented in Quebec history. I do not want to belabour the point, but let me say that this probably costs the Conservatives quite a few ridings in Quebec. People spontaneously stood up and spoke out against everything that was being done. Nevertheless, here we are told that they have never received such generous funding in their lifetime. These two points of view have quite a bizarre relationship.

Before tabling your budget, you travelled to various places in Canada and in Quebec to meet these people. We've heard and we also read in the newspapers that you were listening to them and that you were in favour of their cause. On the other hand, after the budget was tabled, the comments were even worse than the last time. I have some of these comments here. Raymond Legault, from the Union des artistes, said that he was worried about the future of the programs intended for creative artists. The Mouvement pour les arts et les lettres is disappointed because so few measures have been taken to help the cultural community. The Union des écrivaines et des écrivains québécois says that as far as the Canada Council is concerned, nothing was announced about the programs that were cut and that the federal government had promised. Mr. Paré, from the Conférence internationale des arts de la scène, explained why he was deeply disappointed. Roger Frappier, the film producer, finds that the Harper government is like an impenetrable wall, and so forth. These people are practically unanimous about this. However, you still go on repeating that you have never committed so much money to culture.

As far as I am concerned, I see a great divergence between these points of view. This is why Ms. Lavallée suggested that we should invite some of these people so that they can explain to us what is going on. What can we say to them? You said that studies were done before cutting certain programs that you and your team considered to be insufficiently productive and replacing them with other programs. Can you table these studies? Could we have a copy of the said reports?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Among other things, it gives the reasons why the Canadian Memory Fund was not renewed. Before my deputy minister deals with the details and the documents of this case, I must say that people are not unanimous about this in Quebec. Some people do not agree with our policies. This is to be expected, and it does not matter very much. After all, democracy allows for debate.

And yet, we can read in Le Devoir that Luc Fournier, of the Canadian Festivals Coalition considers that the budget is very good news. Gilbert Rozon, from the Juste pour rire group, said the following: “By integrating arts and culture along with major events in his crisis policy, Prime Minister Stephen Harper recognizes the role that this sector plays in the national economy [...]“. It says here that the Canadian Museums Association warmly welcomes the investments made in culture. And there are yet other quotes. Therefore, people are not unanimous. We can debate the issues. I also know that in Quebec, Ms. St-Pierre and the members of the PQ held an important debate on culture. There is no unanimity of opinion in Quebec, but we can meet the needs of the artists. Now, the deputy minister will tell you about the documents and about the decisions that were made.

[Judith LaRocque, Deputy Minister, Department of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Pomerleau, the strategic review done by the Department of Canadian Heritage was carried out in a way that was very similar to that adopted by all the other departments that had to undergo a strategic review. We studied all the expenditures and all the programs of the department to try to determine the 5% of the programs that are now out of date. The minister gave the example of the culture.ca website. The site was built before the arrival of Goggle and Yahoo, and it was quickly replaced by these search engines, which are much more efficient now than anything that the government could try to do. We really do not have the technology to keep up, as they do.

Therefore, these kinds of programs were considered. All these recommendations were submitted to the cabinet and the decisions were made by the cabinet. The documents as such are considered to be cabinet documents and we are not allowed to distribute them.

However, I can tell you that in many cases, decisions are based on studies and evaluations, and in other cases, on plain common sense. For instance, the fact was considered that very few people used the culture.ca site, and using it costs $1.90 per visit. This is how we actually studied all the programs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much for that. Your time is up. It was almost six minutes.

Ms. Glover, please.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

First of all, Mr. Minister, let me congratulate you for having taken the time to come here today. As I am the mother of a young artist, I congratulate you. Your commitment and your love for arts and culture are truly impressive and I congratulate you for that.

As the Parliamentary Secretary for Official Languages, I, just like you, am concerned about the conditions of minority official language communities. I know that our government has done a great deal for culture and also for official languages communities through the programs of the Department of Canadian Heritage.

In any case, I would like to know how we can help these communities culturally.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Our road map has provided $1.1 billion over five years for official languages. There are about 1 million francophones outside Quebec. Canada's linguistic duality is very important for us and for all Canadians. Maillardville, the largest francophone community in the west is in my riding; you, in Manitoba, have Rivière Rouge. I am highly aware of the needs of the francophone communities and also of the needs of youth. This is important.

Please just let me say a few words about my heritage.

My parents didn't really agree with Pierre Trudeau a whole lot--not shocking. They believed, in broad strokes, that Pierre Trudeau had it right about people having their right to privacy. They believed, generally speaking, that Pierre Trudeau had it right in his passionate defence of this country and that it was in the best interests of all Canadians to have their kids learn both of Canada's official languages.

My sisters and I were enrolled in French immersion schools right from kindergarten to the end of high school. Now one of my sisters works with Johnson & Johnson helping with French translation and customer service. My other sister is a French immersion teacher in Burnaby, and I am the minister of official languages. So all of us are using it.

I believe very passionately that the government's investments and support of official languages only serves to improve and help this country. It helps improve and unite Canadians, and it helps to serve and improve the quality of life of young Canadians. That's what our road map for linguistic duality is about. It's about $1.1 billion over five years.

And I'll give credit where it's due. This was a project that was begun when Stéphane Dion was named minister of intergovernmental affairs after the 1995 referendum. He had his original feuille de route--I believe it was $780 million or in that neighbourhood. That program had a lot of successes, and some failures. We can always learn from those and go forward. That's what we're trying to do with this feuille de route. It's an important investment for the future of this country.

There are over one million francophone Canadians outside the province of Quebec--in small towns like Hearst, Ontario, which is Charlie's riding, in Maillardville, my riding, which is the largest French settlement west of the Red River city of St. Boniface. Edmonton has a large francophone community of new Canadians, from Africa in particular, who are looking for services in official languages. So that's what this is about. It's about supporting young Canadians who are learning the official languages.

There's $14 million within the plan for arts and culture in our official language minority communities. It's also providing services for Canadians whose first language is French, many of whom struggle to learn English but who still require government services in the official language of their choice. Often they're in small communities where provincial governments, frankly, aren't making the kinds of investments in those services that are required. That's where we, as the federal government, are stepping in with these investments for our road map for linguistic duality.

I think it serves the benefit of Canadians, and that's why we're doing it.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I appreciate your comments. I have to tell you that as a mother of many children, our children are well served by your passion for arts and culture and for French immersion and the linguistic duality in our country.

Do I have time for one more short question, Mr. Chair?

I'd like to ask about something else that I personally find important, and that's the work we do regarding projects we fund with regard to aboriginal people. I'd like you to discuss, if you could, what your department's reach is in support of our urban aboriginal peoples.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

A very short answer, Mr. Chair? Okay.

I'll give you an example. Native friendship centres are an important part of our communities. I did my undergraduate studies at the University of Northern British Columbia. Along Fifth Avenue or something like that is the largest native friendship centre in, I think, the country. Aboriginals living in northern and remote communities in British Columbia, who in some cases are escaping some pretty desperate situations, are coming to the University of Northern British Columbia and getting their first crack at post-secondary education. They might go to the College of New Caledonia and then move on to the University of Northern B.C. This is their first shot at it.

So they come from pretty desperate economic straits, and they need that support. The first nations friendship centre in Prince George is a fantastic place. Everybody loves it. It gives first nations students who are getting their first shot at post-secondary education a place to stay that's affordable. They can go to school with people from their aboriginal communities, people coming in to the east from the Nass Valley and elsewhere. These native friendship centres, which we are supporting—I think it's a $114-million program to support these native friendship centres—has really helped a lot of first nations people go to university, move forward, and have more choice in how they want to live their lives.

People often ask me--I'll be a bit partisan here--why I'm a Conservative. I believe in making decisions that allow people more power, influence, and control on how they choose to live their lives. And these kinds of investments do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Simms.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

First of all, Minister, thanks for coming....

What's that?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Don't ask me about equalization.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I might.

I just want to start by saying thanks for coming. Then I'll dispense with the formalities.

You made one comment about $1.95 per hit at culture.ca. You can answer this during your response, but you made the comment that no private institution would accept that sort of thing, at $1.95 a hit. I believe Ms. LaRocque brought up the same.

I would suggest that if that's your only yardstick for your department, you may want to reconsider the answers in the future. For instance, if you used the yardstick of $1.95 per hit as a way of judging the Canadian Television Fund, I think that would be an unmitigated cultural disaster, as is the case.

Now, before you answer, let me try to give my other questions in succession. I have quite a few here. Then I want to deal with an issue that will take about two minutes to talk about, and that's of course copyright. I meant that jokingly about the two minutes.

From October 2007 through to June 2008, in many speeches in the House you talked about copyright legislation introduction. Bill C-61 was introduced in June 2008. It died at first reading.

Now, in your election platform, you said--well, your party said--and I quote, that a re-elected Conservative government would strike the “appropriate balance”.

My question is when is the copyright legislation coming? Is this going to be a spring event or a fall event? Who owns copyright legislation? Would that be you or the Minister of Industry? And what will follow from that when or if it makes its way through committee?

Also, when it comes to the copyright legislation itself, I do want you to comment on striking that appropriate balance. What to you is appropriate balance? And don't forget my $1.95-a-hit comment.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Don't worry. Actually, though, it's $1.98 a hit.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

But she said $1.95.