Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 9th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Uppal.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for taking the time to be here.

I'd like you to highlight some of the key investments the government is making in festivals and events. For example, we've seen that Canadian Heritage is the sponsor of the Silver Skate Festival, and the international jazz festival in Edmonton. Specifically in my riding, Canadian Heritage has been a sponsor of the Under the Big Top Festival at Festival Place in Sherwood Park, and Canada Day festivities in Fort Saskatchewan.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I have an entire binder here that I carry with me of investments we've made almost exclusively in festival funding, broken down by province. We're making these kinds of investments because advertising revenue has dropped dramatically. It's down anywhere from 25% to 50% and in some cases 60% for a lot of these festivals. These advertising revenues are key for these events to go forward.

At a time when we have economic uncertainty--at all times, but particularly now--whether you're in the centre, the left, or the right, it doesn't matter what party you're from, the job of every member of Parliament is to make decisions that improve the quality of life of Canadians. That's our job. We can disagree about how we get there and do that--and that's what these forums are for--but our job is to improve the quality of life of Canadians.

I don't think there can be much debate about the fact that local community events improve the quality of life of Canadians. I think about where I'm from. You spoke about some of the experiences you have in your district. I think about the Golden Spike Days festival in Port Moody, which celebrates the final spike driven in the CP railway when Canada expanded west. We have the old station museum there, and every summer on Canada Day and two days after there's an amazing community event. It has grown into a huge community event that is all about kids and supporting Canadian pride. It's right around Canada Day on purpose, with the spike, as you can imagine.

They are having a problem getting sponsorship for their event and getting those moneys coming in. Booths are getting smaller and smaller. About one-third or one-quarter of the booths are from industry groups or community groups. They establish booths to tell people about how they service the community. Rogers might do some face-painting, or Telus might paint the face of a child while they tell their parents about their very important cellphone program. It goes with it, and that's fine, but these kinds of things are being pulled back.

We want these festivals to go ahead, so we've put forward $100 million over two years so these festivals can continue to go forward and be saved. It's really important for Canadians to know that when there is a failure in the economy to support these kinds of events with advertising revenue, our government is stepping into the breach to support them, because they're really important for Canadians.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

We've highlighted, most of the day, how important this funding is, and it really is. But definitely, from talking to people in my riding, it's also important to know about accountability, about the checks and balances the department has to make sure that the funding is going where it's intended to go and is being spent properly. Can you highlight just what the department does to make sure that the money flows into the right hands and is spent properly?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

As you can imagine, this is important for Canadians. It's important for members of Parliament. We're making these record investments, and we're doing it at a very high pace with this budget and its increased spending.

We've learned a lot of lessons from the past. I don't know if the deputy minister wants to talk about some of those mechanisms.

[Judith LaRocque]

Well, of course, we do regular audits and evaluations of our programs. But in the case, for example, of the festivals money, we actually did a pre-implementation test to determine how we would measure success at the end of the process and so be alert to the pitfalls we could fall into along the way. We pull selections of files and do spot checks. We do any number of things to ensure that the money is being spent according to the terms and conditions and all the parliamentary and Treasury Board approvals.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Del Mastro, you can have a very short question.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Minister, you talked about doubling the funding to Cultural Spaces Canada. Can you just talk about the importance of Cultural Spaces Canada and why doubling the funding there was something you thought was necessary?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

It's very short. I was going to actually finish what I was saying to Charlie Angus about the funding formula we're thinking about implementing that would be beneficial to Canadians.

Let me put it this way. I've had the opportunity to travel a lot in my time as a member of Parliament. I've spent a lot of time in the United States and a lot of time abroad. I can tell you--you don't see this often in Canada, but I've certainly seen it in a lot of cities, which will remain nameless, elsewhere in the world--that there's nothing worse, frankly, than going to a city that has a strong, thriving economy but is culturally dead. Just dead. I mean, they have great jobs and great employment, but you go to the strip mall, and then you go home. People operate in their own personal spaces at home in front of a television or a computer, but there's no shared sense of space.

I think it's very important for cities to be alive. I love going to Quebec City and Montreal. There's nothing more alive in Montreal than the jazz festival, or even Montreal on St. Patrick's Day. In Quebec City they just, of course, had the Carnaval de Québec last week, and the Prime Minister was there. Cities that are alive are cities you want to live in. It doesn't matter how strong your economy is, quality of life is more than that. That's why we make these investments in cultural spaces.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

The CBC renewal licence is coming up. We know that CBC, like the other broadcasters, has taken a major hit in terms of its advertising revenue. Given the pressures on CBC right now, would you consider, with the renewal of their licence, opening CBC Radio One and Radio Two to commercial advertising?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

CBC has, as you've said, a lot of pressure to have commercial advertising. We're working with Hubert Lacroix and people at CBC to really get a full sense of the scale of the problems they have. Commercial advertising is an option that has been talked about for some time. I would frankly consider anything, as long as the end result is a strong national public broadcaster that gives Canadians the best service possible.

CBC has some very specific concerns, and its mandate is unlike anything in the private sector. Often you'll see media commentators and columnists saying, “Look, CanWest is in this situation. CTVglobemedia is here. And CBC is over here.” It's not apples to apples. The dynamic of the CBC and its mandate is not as simple and straightforward as that of the other broadcasters.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

So you would consider opening up advertising on Radio One and Radio Two. Has that been discussed?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

It has not been discussed with CBC Radio. It's not something I am looking at doing. But I can tell you that we are very conscious of the needs of the CBC and the pressures they are facing. I would certainly work with them on any option they think would work to best serve their mandate in serving Canadians.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

I want to ask about the festival funding. You're probably one of the few members of Parliament who actually has to try to pay bills for traveling the Canadian festival circuit. And, boy, Mr. Minister, as you said, there are some excellent and amazing festivals out there. My concern is how the money rolls out.

We know that two years ago there was an announcement about festival funding, and it was much ballyhooed. In fact, it was the only arts funding announcement I can remember from your predecessor. Then the money didn't flow. Then there was the memo that Conservative ridings should pony up and get theirs out. Then the money still didn't flow. Then the minister said it could be used for all kinds of things, like midnight madness specials and other rather dubious and questionable activities.

This is a lot of money, and as I said, there's no easier way to get a lot of pork-barrel photo ops. How are you going to ensure that the money gets out and gets out fairly? What are the criteria, and who's going to oversee it?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

You're right. It is a serious challenge that we have, but beyond the new envelope of $100 million over two years, the existing envelope for festivals is a lot as well. The assessments are ongoing. I can tell you that Minister of State Ablonczy, through tourism and industry, is involved in this discussion as well. We're going to have cabinet conversations very soon about how to get this money spent and spent as quickly as possible. As for some of the accountability mechanisms, I think my deputy can speak to that.

[Judith LaRocque]

We're working with our colleagues at Industry Canada and at the Tourism Commission as well. They have some ideas as well. If you look at the specifics in the budget, it's quite linked to tourism initiatives. They're the experts in that field.

We're there to provide assistance to them in helping to get the money out the door, if that is how this unfolds, because you could do it through our programs or you could do it through programs at the Canadian Tourism Commission. Some of that detail is still being worked out, but certainly we would apply the same scrutiny and the same kinds of professional guidelines that we do in our department for the other festivals. We would want to get the money out the door while respecting all the due diligence requirements that are necessary.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I guess one of the complaints that people have with the federal department is the level of scrutiny, when there is scrutiny. Sometimes in arts programs it seems to take more than a year to get money out the door. Yet we have the Canada Council, which is at arm's length, as you say, and allows you to look very good and never take a partisan hit.

The question I would have is why not look at alternative models for getting this funding out? For example, there's the Ontario Arts Council. The Ontario Arts Council does its touring grants for all kinds of promotion. It's an arm's-length peer jury. I used to sit on those juries. It's an excellent process. The money gets out in a timely fashion.

Given just how easy it would be for people to turn something like a festivals fund into a pork-barrel fund, I wonder whether or not you would consider having an arm's-length peer jury for funding like this. That way, the big festivals are going to get their funding, the small festivals are going to get their funding, and the dubious ones are going to be weeded out. We won't have a taint of the pork barrel. Would you consider a move like that in terms of getting this money out in an accountable fashion?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I agree with you that it's a concern. The Ontario Arts Council dynamic is not one we're looking at.

But you're right, it is a concern. We want to get the money out there and we want to get it out in a way that's accountable and effective, and also in a way so that new players are getting money. Part of the problem, to be honest with you, Charlie, is that a lot of the assessment is still going on in regard to festivals that are doing their own internal analysis about how bad this year might be in terms of the amount of support they're going to be getting from the private sector.

The Symphony of Fire in Vancouver is one of the largest fireworks displays. I think Toronto has one as well. This fireworks display attracts 250,000 people four nights per summer, downtown. It's a huge event. They've just cancelled this year. This was a big event that had a lot of support. The City of Vancouver and a lot of the business community supported it. So a lot of people are looking at that and thinking, “My God, if they can't make a go of it, then we need to start thinking about how we're going to make ends meet”.

As we do these assessments in terms of finding out who exactly is in need and how much support they need, then, therefore, there is the analysis about how we get this money out and spent. You're right, though. Look, we want to make sure the money is spent properly. We've had experiences in the past with the Liberal sponsorship program, where money, in a lot of ways, was designed to go to reasonable ends, but in the end was spent in a dubious and ultimately criminal way. We want to make sure Canadians understand that this money is specifically for festivals and events that will serve the interests of Canadians, not the interests of the government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

I'm going to go first to Ms. Dhalla and then to Mr. Rodriguez.

Ms. Dhalla.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I'm going to be splitting my time with my colleague, Mr. Rodriguez.

I have a couple of questions. We all know that the broadcast industry is facing a tremendous amount of pressure, especially in light of the growing economic crisis that we have. There are people out there who are laying off some of their employees, some of their journalists, closing their doors, and also shutting down their stations. At the same time, there's also an incredible and mounting pressure on the broadcast industry to convert from digital to high definition. What type of support do you think the government will be providing?

We also know that the heritage committee here did a report last year that was called “CBC/Radio-Canada: Defining Distinctiveness in the Changing Media Landscape”. At that time, the government stated that funding for CBC and Radio-Canada was a matter for Parliament. CBC, like the other private broadcasters, CanWest and CTV, will also be facing the same pressure to convert from digital to high definition. Can you please shed some light on what types of support or resources will be provided?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

As you know, the CRTC has indicated the conversion will take place August 31, 2011. For well over 90% of Canadians the conversion will take place and will frankly go largely unnoticed. There are of course other concerns. Part of the problem, to be honest, is the technological changes happening so quickly. I think many of the broadcasters themselves are making business decisions about how they want to go forward into this new environment.

The cost of things, if you look at the United States, where in May or June 2011.... President Obama has indicated their conversion is going to be happening at a different date. Part of the problem is that there's such a rapid change of technology and a rapid change of the cost of the technology that the idea we can make a quick, hard-and-fast decision right now in terms of what the needs will be in 2011 technologically is very hard to do. We're very conscious of it, but we have no plans to do a converter-box program like what they've done in the United States, with the coupons and so on. We have no plans to do that. This ought to be an industry-led solution, and the technology changes afoot right now are frankly very difficult for us to grasp. I'm not sure if the deputy may have more to add beyond that, but I can tell you we are very conscious of the pressures that exist.