Canadian Heritage Committee on April 20th, 2015

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you.

On that note, we will now go to Mr. Valeriote for seven minutes.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, gentlemen, for attending before the committee today.

I'm on the veterans affairs committee. I have been for approximately a year, and a member of the Legion for the past many years. I come from a community that spends a lot of time honouring the men and women who gave their lives for our freedom, our democracy, and those who came home to tell their stories.

In fact, we attend a rather moving ceremony every November 11, and other days as well but particularly November 11, in our Sleeman Centre. I'm told it's among the best commemorations in Canada and it is the efforts of our Legion, frankly, that make it so successful. Without them there would be no commemoration that would nearly match what happens on Remembrance Day in Guelph.

Having said that, there is no amount of commemoration that we can give to our soldiers, fallen or those who return. There is no amount of compensation that we can give them, not adequate compensation, for any of the injuries they suffered, whether it be mental or physical. So in my mind anything we can do to raise the profile of Remembrance Day is a good thing.

At our last committee meeting, in my review of some of the notes that have been sent to me by the Library of Parliament, I am advised and I believe—and I'm going to address some of the legal consequential aspects of this legislation—that notwithstanding the words “legal holiday” in the legislation, that does not mean “statutory holiday”. It does not mean a day off. In fact, when I look at the Library of Parliament statement that I received, it says, “The Holidays Act does not entitle employees to a day off with pay”. This is done through other legislation or regulation; notably, provincial legislation. This act does not require the provinces to look at this legislation and have them consider making it a statutory holiday.

In effect what the bill does is raise the profile of Remembrance Day without making it a statutory holiday.

You indicated, Mr. White, that the Legion was opposed to the legislation largely because of that, and I don't disagree with you. The people I've talked to at the Legion in Guelph and many other people in Guelph who are non-Legion members are concerned about it being a statutory holiday for the many reasons that have been discussed around this table.

If you were satisfied that this does not create a statutory holiday but merely raises the profile as a legal holiday so that it is considered no less a national holiday than any other holiday, as Mr. Blais said, would that allay your concerns and would you say, in that case, “Let's get this legislation passed as quickly as possible”?

[Bradley K. White]

Legally or otherwise—we can play with words—you give Canadians the average sort of indication that this is now a holiday, then they take it as a holiday. They don't look at the Library of Parliament to have a definition of what is or what is not implied by the terminology of being legal or statutory.

The position that we present comes from our members and is voted on democratically at our organization in our meetings and our conventions, so we portray that.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Mr. Blais, let me ask you. If you knew that it did not necessitate the statutory holiday, the entitlement to not go to work or go to school, if it did not produce that result, that was not the consequence, and it, as you said, raised the profile as a national holiday without the statutory absence from work or school, would you encourage the passage of this bill as quickly as possible?

[Michael Blais]

Absolutely, and I believe that there will come a time in this nation when all provinces will embrace the concept of the national holiday for it and it will be statutory at that level. But I understand, and you must understand, that what we're doing today, while it may not have the statutory things that I would love to see, it does provide advocates like myself who work on a provincial level the tools to move forward to convince these legislatures that these arguments are moot. They have no place here.

We're talking about wounded men and women and paying respect at a national level, and working—

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Blais. I have another question for Mr. Schellenberger; I only have so much time.

Mr. Schellenberger, you expressed concern about it being a statutory holiday. We were advised at committee in our last meeting, and from the Library of Parliament, that a legal holiday in no way means a statutory holiday. It does not compel anyone to relieve their employees of going to work or any school board anywhere in Canada from relieving their students of attending school.

Knowing that, would you not think—given that this will heighten the profile of Remembrance Day without creating a statutory holiday from work or school—that this bill should be supported then as quickly as possible and moved through this House?

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

With all of the regulation you've just been talking about or those types of things, I'm going to give you a bit of an analogy of what goes on. Whatever the rules are don't always qualify....

We have a very prominent veteran in Stratford by the name of Art Boon. He is a D-Day veteran. He's been honoured by the French. He's been honoured now by the Dutch. Holland has invited him to the special occasion to celebrate the liberation of Holland.

He is 82 or some years old. He needs a caregiver to go with him. He has suggested that his son, a schoolteacher, go with him for those six days. That schoolteacher asked for six days off with no pay to go with his father to Holland to celebrate this great occasion and to celebrate his father's great gift, which he's not only given to the Dutch but to us here in Canada. He's been denied. The school board won't give him six days off to go to the commemoration.

I think this is what happens. It doesn't matter what your regulation is, these are the types of things that happen.

I have to say before I conclude this little part that it's very strange. This is the first time I've been recognized as Gary Ralph Schellenberger in a committee—any place. I have signs all over the place. My father was Ralph Schellenberger, a veteran of the Second World War.

It's wonderful. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you, Mr. Valeriote, and thank you, Mr. Schellenberger.

We're now going to move to Mr. Young for seven minutes.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. White, as a brief introduction, I struggled with this issue as a member of provincial Parliament. I think the year was 1997. We discussed this same issue in a private member's bill: should Remembrance Day be an official holiday with time off for everybody or stay as it was?

The paramount constituency, at least for me, was veterans, people who have put their lives on the line for others. I talked to them face to face and they gave me the same message then as you're giving us today, which is to leave it as it is and have the children in school. Many of my veterans go in to talk to the children, and they have found that very valuable. They thought that was meaningful.

I wonder if you could expand on your remarks. You have 330 Legions that you represent. How did you communicate with them to get mutual agreement on the issue?

[Bradley K. White]

Mr. Clark is along with me, and I think I'll let him answer this question.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you. That would be great.

[Steven Clark, Director of Administration, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion]

Thanks very much.

With regard to the process that we follow for making democratic decisions within the Legion, as Mr. White said, everything originates with our local branches. We are very much a bottom-up organization. They are the ones who develop the policies that will eventually get enacted and voted upon and put into practice on a national level.

The process that would follow, and has followed on numerous occasions in the past, is that a branch, with the support of their members, would make the recommendation that perhaps Remembrance Day be recognized as a statutory holiday or not. That would get passed through their provincial command and eventually make it to our Dominion Convention.

At that time, the representatives at the convention, who represent branches from all across the country, have an opportunity to vote on what an individual branch has decided. Based on that decision, that policy is then adopted and put into practice.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Schellenberger, I imagine that the last thing our veterans would want is a division amongst Canadians on this issue. Unfortunately, I'm not finding any consensus on it.

I do want to ask, with some hesitation, about the cost to business, because of that issue, because of resentment. If businesses are losing money, I wouldn't want there to be any resentment. When Family Day was introduced in 2009 in Ontario, the figure was that it would cost businesses $2 billion. Have you studied that issue at all, and do you have any comments on that?

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

When I was in small business, I never talked in the millions; I talked in the thousands. What would the cost be? I know when I ran my business a number of years ago, for every three employees I had to have the fourth to cover the overhead for my employees. That's roughly where the cost would come in.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Blais, I've done a straw poll on the Internet. I have my own newspaper online that I send to quite a large number of my constituents. I sent out the question, with one paragraph each way, and I just asked them to send me a note in reply. It's roughly 50-50 on this issue at this point, so I don't have a consensus. But I think everyone in this room agrees with you that there should be formal recognition that is significant and meaningful. I wonder if you have any ideas. If the bill doesn't pass, are there other ways that there can be formal recognition, which is significant and meaningful, without it being a day off from work for everyone?

[Michael Blais]

We speak to respect again. I hate bringing up that word.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

One moment, we have a point of order.

Mr. Harris.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Sorry, I let it go the first few times, but we've all agreed here that this doesn't create a day off or a statutory holiday. Mr. Young in particular has repeatedly implied that it would. I would just ask that he keep to the bill itself and not stray, implying something incorrect, which is that this would create a day off.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Young.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Can you answer that question, Mr. Blais, and also answer, in reference to the point just made, which wasn't really a point of order, what would be the point of making it a statutory holiday if businesses didn't close?

[Michael Blais]

Let's break it down again. What we are doing here is important, not in the sense of a statutory—

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Mr. Valeriote, do you have a point of order?

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I'm sorry—and this went on in the last committee meeting as well—there's a constant misleading of witnesses that this creates a day off and it does not create a day off.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you, Mr. Valeriote, but I'm going to rule that's a point of debate and—