Evidence of meeting #127 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
No, it's more broadly in terms of ownership of work.
Director, Artist-Run Centres and Collectives Conference
It is hard for me not to cite the artist-run centres' best practices.
I am accompanied here by my colleague Jason Saint-Laurent, who is an artist, curator and director of SAW Gallery here in Ottawa, which you may be familiar with. If we look to examples such as the SAW Gallery, we'll see that there currently are some very progressive practices in the artist-run network that put artists and their remuneration and support at the centre of all operations, including governance, production, creation and presentation.
Liberal
Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Mr. Saint-Laurent, do you have anything you would add to that with respect to your practices, and then, more globally, the practices that we might learn from?
Jason Saint-Laurent Artist, Artist-Run Centres and Collectives Conference
Sure. I just returned from Sweden. In Stockholm they hold an independent, artist-run fair, which is the largest of its kind in the world, and you get prodded about your own system all the time: What is the Canada Council like for you? What is your artist-run system like?
We have an artist-run system across Canada that is the world's oldest and most expansive. Artist-run centres worked in concert with CARFAC in the early days to ensure that artists get remunerated and paid artist fees. We sort of became a model for systems around the world.
Scandinavia is now looking to Canada to model its art funding system, its artist's payment system, modelled on CARFAC and the Canada Council for the Arts. They really like the fact that we have an arts funding system here that is at arm's length from government and peer-assessed. That's not something you find in many places around the world. It's a system that is very well respected.
In terms of artist-run centres, many of us, but not all, are funded by the Canada Council. Some of us are 45 or 50 years old now. We feel that we've inspired regional museums and national institutions to start doing the same things we do, ensuring that an artist comes away from an exhibition with money in their pocket. It's often expected that artists will pay for their materials, pay for their travel, and pay for all kinds of expenses related to their exhibitions. By the time they get paid their artist's fee, the money has been spent.
So I think we've created a model for institutions across the country to ensure that artists come away from their projects with money in their pocket.
Spokesperson, Artist and Director of Independent Media Arts Alliance, Visual Arts Alliance
Can I add a point for Mr. Hogg?
Spokesperson, Artist and Director of Independent Media Arts Alliance, Visual Arts Alliance
It's interesting that Jason just mentioned Scandinavia. I have been studying an example of a very interesting practice from Norway. The Norwegian equivalent of CARFAC has been financing for many years a system of long-term income supplements to established and senior artists. Basically, the way the system works is this. Recognizing that the public funding system does have some blind spots and some gaps, specifically with respect to practising artists who are in their senior years, they've instituted a very rigorous system for awarding stable, long-term funding to artists for five- or seven-year periods, I believe, so that they can continue with their practice at a time when perhaps their production is less attractive to the flavour-of-the-month art market.
If I'm not mistaken—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin
I will have to cut you off there. I'm sorry, but we're over time.
Mr. Yurdiga, go ahead, please.
David Yurdiga Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for coming in today and informing us. I learned a lot.
Madam Bertrand, in your presentation you mentioned that one third of the artists get copyright. How important is it for these artists to get copyright? I see that two-thirds do not. Is there an advantage to having it or not?
Director, Artist-Run Centres and Collectives Conference
The question of copyright is directly related to intellectual property. Converting creative processes to property is something we've been doing for a long time. It's just not generating the same kind of revenue we wish it did. There's no question that exhibition fees are essential to the overall remuneration or support of artists; it's just not in amounts that are sufficient to provide a decent wage. I'm not calling into question copyright. I am merely saying that maybe we could be looking at other sources, maybe funds, to give copyright a bit of a top-up or boost.
It's probably too late to answer Mr. Hogg's question, but there are some models out there where a fund has been created that allows for organizations to access this fund to pay copyright or exhibition fees to artists. It's not something I have examined closely, but I'm sure there are things we could look at in terms of other experiences in other countries that might provide some perspective.
Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
You know the copyright process. I'm not sure what goes on. Is that an expensive venture for a lot of these artists? I assume it costs something to get a copyright.
Director, Artist-Run Centres and Collectives Conference
All cultural production that is fixed on a medium is protected by copyright in Canada. There is no process for having copyright. The expense might come when one is paying a collective agency. They might take a little bit of a percentage fee for managing copyright for the benefit of the artist. Other than that, there's no cost to copyright.
Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
We have 180 artist-run centres. I believe you said that 77 receive core funding.
Is there a reason why the other ones do not get core funding? Do they not qualify? Why are there only 77 of them getting core funding?
Director, Artist-Run Centres and Collectives Conference
The short answer to this is that for the longest time there was no extra funding to admit new organizations into the fold of core funding at the Canada Council for the Arts.
A lot of these organizations are receiving funding through their municipal and provincial art councils. They just haven't been able to access the federal council yet.
Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Thank you.
My next question is for Émilie.
You mentioned something about resale rights. How far does it go down the chain? Every time a piece changes hands, do you want a fee or a tax associated with it?
Board Member, Contemporary Art Galleries Association
That's the project that CARFAC has put forward. Basically, every time a work of art is resold, there is a 5% fee that would go back to the artist.
As a representative of the art market and especially the primary market, where we work really closely with the artist, I would say that we feel that this is really not a good idea for the market that we currently have here in Canada.
Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Tracking it would be very difficult, especially if something went into private hands and then was gifted or sold. I think that would be a big challenge in itself.
Board Member, Contemporary Art Galleries Association
Tracking it would be difficult, and also finding the artist. There are a lot of administrative issues that are very costly indeed.
Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Obviously there are a lot of problems for all forms of media, whether music, visual or other arts.
What would you like this committee to know? What can we do to ensure that there is remuneration and that the creators are properly compensated?
Board Member, Contemporary Art Galleries Association
It's the AGAC position that the very best way to make sure that the socio-economic conditions of the artist get better is to have a healthy art market. We don't have a very strong art market in Canada.
You are absolutely correct in saying that we make other nations very envious of the system that we have here, because we have managed to build a very strong public funding body that helps artists to create, and through the very important and recognized artist-run centres system....
We are very good at helping artists create and present their work, but we kind of forgot how to bring tools that would make people buy those works. Right now, artists have studios that are full of works that have no buyers. They have to destroy works because they just can't manage to store them anymore.
Recently, the Canada Council Art Bank had to vacate space and return works, especially large sculptures. Artists who were very happy to be part of that important collection are now stuck with artworks they sold 25 years ago, and they don't know what to do.
There is not necessarily a market for that. We talk a lot about art as an investment, but it's not a very liquid investment, let's say.
NDP
Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you all for your presentations. They are very interesting, especially since they deal with issues that are less obvious than those that have been discussed at length, such as the lousy public performance rights that musical artists receive from streaming platforms or all the issues with which we are familiar now, since we have been conducting this study.
My first question is for you, Mr. Madan.
Could you summarize the copyright issues in digital arts? Are any royalties paid? Is there copyright theft? We know the music industry well and we know about film piracy and so on, but on your side, what is the main issue?
Spokesperson, Artist and Director of Independent Media Arts Alliance, Visual Arts Alliance
Digital arts actually overlap with works of art that are easy to reproduce. Any work of art built around an entirely digital medium, whether in music, film or television, suffers that fate, as we all know, and the same applies to the digital arts.
Under those circumstances, it is very difficult to protect the original version and, when it is sold or resold, to ensure that the artist or copyright owner is properly remunerated.
NDP
Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
I will make a comment here. All the issues of piracy on the web are therefore the same, and concern you as much as other works in other formats and from other disciplines. However, you have just mentioned the potential impact on the transaction that the artists are hoping for.
What is that transaction? To whom and how do you sell your works?