Canadian Heritage Committee on May 10th, 2016

[Yuri Bilinsky]

Absolutely. For instance, our subscriber base is shrinking, and this situation with the Russian invasion in Ukraine has created the need to cover these issues back in Ukraine. This has kept interest in the Ukrainian Canadian media, in the community and from the sponsors, which obviously is not a good.... We would prefer that not to happen, obviously. As time goes on, that interest will subside, and what happens then? I'm afraid we'll face the same kind of problems as the mainstream media and other ethnic community media.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Van Loan.

Mr. Nantel, for the NDP.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My thanks to Mr. Kailey and Mr. Grewal, and to Mr. Bilinsky for participating in this meeting by videoconference.

If I'm not mistaken, you do not have English translation, so I will speak English. I think it's much simpler.

I can see that you are the editor-in-chief for New Pathway, but you're also from the Ukrainian Canadian news portal. You were saying just a few minutes ago that you would be even more challenged than mainstream media by the electronic numerical challenges and people moving to this. Do you see that in your Ukrainian Canadian news portal?

[Yuri Bilinsky]

Well, what I probably meant was that digital media, by its nature, is very democratic. Basically anyone can do it. For instance, there are a lot of Facebook communities and groups who are becoming hubs for discussing community issues, the Ukrainian Canadian community issues, and the issues back home in Ukraine because of the war. They are starting to serve a very important role. That obviously is creating some competition, but it's also creating some opportunities.

What I also want to say is that, for us, it's probably a very early stage to be able to draw any conclusions. Also, there is no market as such. There's no advertising market in this particular segment. In the mainstream—

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

In the portal?

[Yuri Bilinsky]

Yes. Well, I'm talking about all those new digital media hubs in the Ukrainian community. In the mainstream media there is a digital advertising market, a printed advertising market, television, and radio. In the community, and especially in the cases of smaller communities, there are no distinctive markets divided by the types of media yet, and it's very difficult to tell how those advertising markets are going to develop. Obviously, they are very small.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you. I'll let you go.

[Yuri Bilinsky]

The last thing I want to say is that because the ethnic and cultural media are to a large extent focused on seniors and new immigrants, they cannot discontinue their printed version. From a cost perspective, it would be something to think about, but it cannot be done. Because of that, it weighs down the cost structure, and digital advertising so far is not compensating for that.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Yes, of course not. If it's on a Facebook group, then the money goes to Facebook, I guess.

I see Mr. Kailey nodding his head.

In the Punjabi community, is there some sort of portal, some community, or do various media come together? Is it all individual? If I understand you well, different business projects come up and get an audience. Is there is no getting together?

[Jagdeep Kailey]

Not even businesses are coming together, not to mention that it's individuals who are trying to make their presence felt.

We are in a kind of catch-22 situation. Our advertisers in the newspapers are ethnic business people. They want to see their advertisement printed somewhere, because it gets.... You have to see that, and our audience, our readership, is that, but at the same time, there is another pull, which is digitalization. We have to be aware of that fact as well.

On the social media from the community, we call them Facebook media. They have set up their.... They tend to be media groups; they are not, but they say things that we cannot even afford to think of. That creates greater competition. You can say anything on social media and then you are done with it, but for us it becomes a greater challenge in how to position ourselves.

We are struggling on the one side with revenue streams that are based, as Mr. Grewal said, on ethnic business people's stores. They don't understand the compulsions or the difficulties we are facing, and at the same time, the social media digitalization is giving us a huge challenge.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Absolutely. I understand.

Mr. Grewal, I have a question for you, and I see that you're wearing your earpiece. If I speak French, will you hear it in English?

[Jagdish Grewal]

Yes, I will.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

What is the proportion of local news in your paper? After all, that is sort of the subject we are dealing with here. In our study, we are always facing different issues, whether there is local news, a local readership and a local advertising market.

Earlier, you said that you have correspondents in India and five reporters here. What is the proportion of local news about the greater Toronto area in your paper in comparison with the international content that probably deals with your home country?

[Jagdish Grewal]

If you look at the printed edition of my newspapers, you will see Canadian headlines every single day. My first priority is to give a headline to the Canadian national news, the second is the provincial news, and the third is the local municipal news. Every day I instruct my staff to do at least 15 to 20 local news items. They are about the federal, provincial, or municipal governments and how they're changing their policies.

Also, as I said in my presentation, we write our editorials strictly on Canadian issues. So far, I have never written a single editorial on Indian politics or on what is happening in India. All I write about are Canadian issues, either about how you guys are changing policies here in Ottawa, or about the provincial or the municipal governments and whatever changes they are making or whatever policies they're bringing in. That's what we are writing about in our paper on a daily basis. There are at least 15 to 20 news items every day, either on small events, such as seniors celebrating someone's birthday at the seniors' club, or on things that are happening here on Parliament Hill.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Have you also seen a decline in government advertising? I note that Mr. Kailey pointed out specifically that there are no government advertisements but there are advertisements from political parties reaching out to members of your community. Did you have government advertising before? If so, have they stopped recently? I imagine that they involved a good deal of money.

[Jagdish Grewal]

Yes. There's a significant drop in advertisements on the government side. If we go back to the previous Liberal government and then the minority Conservative government, at that time many advertisements were coming to our paper, but recently there's been a big drop in those advertisements.

Locally, to talk about Brampton or the Peel region only, if they are giving $1.2 million to the English papers, I get only $2,000 in a year. That's the kind of drop I see in advertisements from provincial, municipal, or federal governments.

[Jagdeep Kailey]

An interesting fact is that the City of Brampton—we are based in Brampton—has allocated over $700,000 to monitor ethnic media. They don't give us any financial support, but they invest so much money to know what we are saying about them. That's something that surprises us.

Until they support us, until they see that we can communicate on their behalf to the community.... But they are more interested in knowing what we are saying about them, so they invest over $700,000 every single year to monitor ethnic media. That's interesting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Kailey.

Thanks, Mr. Nantel.

For the Liberals, Ms. Dabrusin is next.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I would like to thank all the witnesses for your presentations today. They were very helpful.

For Mr. Bilinsky, I'll say “dobry den”. I have the luck to have a Ukrainian intern working in my office at the moment, so I asked her for some help, but that's about as far as I got.

We're looking at two things right now. The concentration of the mainstream media has been a big focus of the discussion we've had to this point.

Starting with Mr. Bilinsky, when we're talking about Ukrainian issues and what you're presenting in your media, how well do you think the French and English mainstream media are paying attention to issues relating to the Ukrainian community?

[Yuri Bilinsky]

I think most of what I've seen was related to Ukraine in the mainstream media, not to the Ukrainian Canadian community as such.

In talking about Ukraine, I don't know whether this will be off the topic, but I'll tell you one thing. Sometimes we see something that we consider a misrepresentation of what's going on in Ukraine.

For instance, it's not always called a Russian “invasion”. Although it's a Russian invasion and there are Russian regular military on the ground in Ukraine, which is not said very often in the Canadian mainstream media, the problem sometimes is called a “civil war”, although it's not a civil war. It's an invasion by another country.

This is what we, as Ukrainian Canadian media, feel a need to compensate for, but the problem is that we're quite small. We are much smaller, and we cannot bring that particular message across to the wider community, and I would call this the single biggest problem content-wise in terms of the mainstream Canadian media in covering any kind of Ukrainian issues.

I haven't seen a lot, to be honest, in the mainstream media about Ukrainian Canadian communities here. Probably when we have our festivals or Ukrainian independence day celebrations, it hits the news channels and mainstream papers. We try to cover all the issues, obviously, and we cover the local community issues more than we cover Ukraine, because there is a lot of information coming from Ukraine.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

If I could ask quickly for an answer from you as well, gentlemen, when we're looking at how well mainstream media represents different community voices, from your perspective, how well do you feel it represents the Punjabi voice?

[Jagdeep Kailey]

I think there is a great disconnect. We know that whenever an incident happens within the community, the mainstream media guys use us as their contact point because they do not have inroads into the community. They don't understand the nuances are woven around a particular issue. For example, when Mr. Grewal was attacked in 2009, it was a brutal attack on his life, and he was the contact point for the mainstream media to get his version and the version of the community as well.

What we have seen at this time, and what we have said in our presentation as well, is that at this time ethnic media is a fact of life today, and it's going to be that way. There is a greater need for supports to come up from wherever they come from, whatever the level of the government, to connect us to the mainstream organizations.

They must have that kind of relationship with us. We can work jointly. Collaboration is going to be the key point, and we need to create those spaces within mainstream media organizations and they need to support us. We need to be taken up a step so that there is a collaboration with both wings of the media. That's the way that Canadian communities will be more enriched. I think it's going to be good.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

I understand, Mr. Bilinsky, that your paper is a recipient of support from the Canada periodical fund. We're looking as well at the different supports that government can and should be providing to different forms of media. Do you have an opinion about how it works now? What changes do you think you need to see in continued support for your paper?

[Yuri Bilinsky]

I think I said that the government might want to think about supporting some endeavours to develop digital platforms for ethnic media, because ethnic media is so poorly financed that any kind of support would be helpful.

Like other ethnic media, we get some funding from election campaigns, from candidates' campaigns during elections. We don't get much between elections in terms of government advertising or government support, other than the ATP subsidy, which is very helpful. It's always helpful if it's increased or upped, but it's a big support at the moment.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

There's a certain delivery model that we have now. That's what's happening right now, but would it in fact be much more helpful if changes were made, be it through the tax act or other ways? Would you say that would be more helpful than what we have now? Or maybe you like it the way it is?