Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 19th, 2019

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Okay.

Regarding the letter that was sent to you by ITK, have you had discussions with them since this came?

[Pablo Rodriguez]

Yes. The last time I spoke with them was in New York, three weeks ago, face to face.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Was it face to face?

[Pablo Rodriguez]

Yes. I mean we were sitting together.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Okay. I'm assuming that you had extensive discussions on how to make changes to the proposed legislation.

[Pablo Rodriguez]

We have ongoing discussions, because as I said at the beginning, my door is always open and my team is there to discuss with them. If there are things we can accommodate and amend, we'll do it. If we agree on stuff, there are things we can do, either amend the bill or do it through agreements in the future.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I have two quick questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Unfortunately, you're out of time.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

We will now be going to Mr. Hogg for seven minutes.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister.

I was delighted to hear you tell the story of Olive. That reminded me of a story I heard about four months ago from Chief Harley Chappell, who is the chief of the Semiahmoo First Nation and a member of the Coast Salish people, and he too was anxious to have this passed.

I heard you twice explicitly state a principle, that indigenous people know best. I was encouraged by that and the extensive consultation you have been through.

I don't expect you'll have time to meet with Harley Chappell and the people of the Semiahmoo First Nation, and I don't think you'll have a chance to meet with everyone. However, I want to be assured that the principles you have talked about are enshrined within the legislation so they are reflected as the values upon which this goes. I believe in the principle and the value of the creation of public policy and legislation, that it is best developed when those people who it most profoundly impacts have their say with respect to that.

Can you speak to the principles and values that are made explicit within this legislation?

[Pablo Rodriguez]

Absolutely.

As I mentioned before, the principles have been adopted together with the various groups. Why? This is the core, the base of the bill. The bill is based on those principles. The bill is based on our response to calls to action 13, 14 and 15. It's based on the fact that we want to advance UNDRIP, specifically the sections related to indigenous languages, and want to make sure that money is there for the long term, so that it's stable and is sufficient for the priorities of the different groups in the various regions.

There are many things related to the principles, but the key thing is that we're recognizing indigenous languages as a fundamental right within section 35. This is a right for the indigenous people—and it is a right. How do you tell your stories? How do you communicate? How do you feel proud about yourself, your past, your culture, all the things you had in common once upon a time that, because of a succession of government, you've lost?

The element of the principles is fundamental, as is the fact that our government announced that we were supporting UNDRIP. That has to have a meaning. It has to be something concrete. Our answer to it is passing the bill, in which there's a direct reference to section 35 stipulating that indigenous languages are a fundamental right.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

One of the skill-testing parts of making legislation is the consultation process and whether you feel that it's extensive enough and that you get a chance to speak to everybody who wants to be heard. A second is whether you enshrine within the legislation the values that allow you to move to make changes, because changes will be needed over the course of time. Some things are held in policy, some of them are orders in council, and some of them are different strategies around those things.

Are you comfortable that the legislation you have here allows for that type of flexibility, so that changes can be made to respond to nuances and needs as we become more aware of them, or as the indigenous people become more aware of them?

[Pablo Rodriguez]

That's a very good question.

The answer is absolutely, and that is reflected in various things.

First of all, while we discuss this bill, there are and will be more discussions with the groups, Indian and Inuit. As they know and as I told them personally when we met a couple of weeks go, and as the House and my staff and the deputy minister told them, we're always ready to sit down with them, and it's going to happen very shortly.

If we agree on more things, then there ae various mechanisms. One is to amend the bill to include them. Clause 9 of the bill allows us to have agreements or arrangements in the future with a government, indigenous groups or nations.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

I support the comments from Madam Jolibois concerning the ability to do so, but I'm not sure, if I'm understanding correctly, that everything can be contained in legislation. That's why I think the values and the principles have to be enshrined there with the flexibility to respond to those matters on an ongoing basis.

[Pablo Rodriguez]

Absolutely.

It's clearly stated in clause 9 that we can have those kinds of arrangements or agreements. There are always possibilities to improve bills. As I said at the beginning, this bill is not perfect, and I'm pretty sure we can improve it. Is it, however, something extremely solid, as a base that we need now? Absolutely it is, because if you want to amend something you have to have that something. If we don't adopt this bill, we will have nothing.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Mr. Blaney asked why it is urgent that it come now. Certainly the people I've talked to in Semiahmoo First Nation have a sense of urgency. They'd like to see this. They also need to be comforted and confident that the values and principles being reflected in it are there, so that if they have an issue come up at a later point in time with the Coast Salish people—particularly the Lummi people, who live in the United States, but they were invited—separated by the Canada-U.S. border. They are the people who have two people who still speak the language, and they need to continue.

There are those types of nuances. We're not going to have a chance to meet with all those people, but there needs to be comfort that those values and principles are reflected in this bill and that as those issues come forward—which are so important to these people and I'm sure right across Canada—you'll have the flexibility to do that because of the values and principles that are contained in the bill.

[Pablo Rodriguez]

I agree with you. If I could meet with everybody, I would. Of course we know that's not possible.

The consultations were broad, serious, responsible and extremely important. The process never stopped. At the moment, we say we're ready to table the bill, but we keep discussing things that are more specific because we also have questions about some of the things that have been suggested. If we can agree on something, then it can be as amended by the committee or implemented through an agreement or an arrangement. Also, as you know, things evolve with time. Legislation can be amended.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

The chair has said that my time is up. I'll catch you in the corner later.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

It is.

We will now go to Mr. Shields for five minutes.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Minister Rodriguez, for being here today to speak about this piece of proposed legislation.

As you read through it, the word “diverse” showed up in the legislation. I could see it if you were saying “the indigenous peoples”, but I don't know why you have the word “diverse” in there. If you're saying “all the indigenous people”, what is the word “diverse” doing in there?

[Pablo Rodriguez]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. This bill includes everybody—

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I know.

[Pablo Rodriguez]

—and it will include the Inuit, also.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You use the word “diverse”, which you read in your statement. You said, “a diverse indigenous people” and in the legislation the word is “diverse”. I just don't know why you have it in there.