Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 16th, 2017

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you.

I have two comments and then three questions, primarily for you, Dr. Emil.

I take issue with your categorization of what this motion is about. The motion deals specifically with Canada, and I think it's important to ground this in Canada and direct what we're trying to do in terms of the racism and the religious discrimination we're trying to deal with here in Canada. I think that's very important.

Second, on the issue about terminology, we've had extensive discussions about terminology, including the use of the word Islamophobia, but I also put it to you—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have two minutes.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

—that terms evolve. For example, the term “homophobia” would be very poorly translated as a fear of homosexuals. It's clearly understood to be the discrimination against homosexuals, the LGBTQ2 community in total.

Third, you said that basically you don't believe systemic racism exists in this country. I would just put it to you that we heard extensive testimony from witnesses, including from indigenous witnesses and black Canadians, about their perceptions of being categorically juxtaposed to that. It's important not to present submissions here that are based purely on personal experience or anecdote; it is important to look at the lay of the land writ large. People would point to the residential school system and the overrepresentation of indigenous persons and blacks in the criminal justice system as examples of systemic discrimination.

You stated that the government is “powerless” because you feel that there are already laws that exist, particularly laws that deal with hate speech and hate promotion. What we've heard from witnesses and what we will continue to hear from witnesses is how to perfect legislation—for example, how to encourage reporting of hate crimes or how to encourage prosecutions of hatred. We will have witnesses coming to speak to that.

What you did say later on, or came around to in response to other questions, is that there could be room for church groups, community groups, and advocacy groups to have some of this dialogue that we were just talking about.

I want to put it to you, because I don't think we share your despondence: is there space for the government to show leadership on this issue and get those church groups, community groups, and advocacy groups talking to one another, through funding mechanisms or by showing other leadership?

Lastly, sir, you've taken issue with the term “Islamophobia” in this motion—

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Madam Chair, on a point of order, you're very good at calling out witnesses when they're taking too long. When Mr. Virani eats up all the time available to this witness, you're not calling that out, giving him the opportunity to make it impossible for the witness to respond to his questions, including some allegations of inappropriate testimony.

Could you now tell the witness and Mr. Virani how much time is left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Mr. Virani had his one-minute notice. He has 45 seconds left.

I am looking at this and I will deal with it. Mr. Virani can ask what questions he wishes in whatever manner he wishes. It is not up to the chair to tell people what to ask and not to ask, but just to keep them on time.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Thank you for clearing that up.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

What are your views on motions that enumerate specifically targeted communities? We've had many such motions in Canada, not just this one about Islamophobia. We had a motion with respect to anti-Semitism in 2016, one with respect to the Yazidi community in 2016, and one with respect to your community, the Coptic Christians. We've identified communities when they're basically being subjected to hatred.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry, Mr. Virani, your time is up. Thank you.

As chair, I am supposed to make sure that the meetings run on time and that people aren't waiting for the second hour unduly. We do not have the ability to have a five-minute round for our second round, so I will ask that our second round be a three-minute round. It might mean that we go about three minutes over time, but that will give our second group the opportunity to have their due time.

We will begin with Mr. Reid for three minutes.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Madam Chair, you deliberately ignored my insistence that we not go to three-minute rounds in the second round. I find your behaviour in this matter very frustrating indeed.

By the way, is it Dr. Sherif or Dr. Emil?

[Dr. Sherif Emil]

I am Sherif Emil. You can just say Sherif, or Dr. Emil, or whatever you like. Emil is my last name.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Thank you very much.

You didn't get a chance to answer any of those questions. I want to ask the obvious one. You said you had experienced no systemic discrimination. I take it that you were simply not giving a comment on the situation of aboriginal Canadians vis-à-vis the justice system, for example, or black Canadians; you were referring specifically to yourself as a person of Middle Eastern ancestry who is sometimes incorrectly mistaken for a Muslim.

Is that correct?

[Dr. Sherif Emil]

I do not believe systemic religious discrimination exists in Canada. That's all I was referring to.

I do not believe there's systemic religious discrimination. As I've said, I've lived under that. I've lived in Canada many years, and most of my adult life in the U.S., and no, I don't believe there is systemic religious discrimination whereby people are denied opportunities based solely on their religion.

I want to make another point about Islamophobia and your point that this is about Canada. No, it's not about Canada, because “Islamophobia” is a word used around the world. It's used specifically in Islamic societies to persecute others, so when we decide to join in this witch hunt of what we call “Islamophobia” and how we're going to punish people who engage in it, we've just joined a very unfortunate club of nations.

Sir, Islamophobia is not just about Canada; it's a worldwide phenomenon. I wish Canada would stay out of it.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

I have a very limited amount of time to ask you for your response to the next question. There of course was a terrible incident of mass murder in Quebec City this January, and it was obviously the worst sort of hate-based action imaginable against Muslims, who were killed just because they were Muslims.

Therefore, I want to ask this question. Would it seem reasonable to you if this committee were to report back that the government ought to condemn the following: all forms of violence, systemic racism, intolerance, and discrimination against Muslims? Would that seem like a reasonable thing to do?

[Dr. Sherif Emil]

Absolutely. These are despicable acts and they should be condemned in the strongest manner and they should be punished, not just condemned.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

I want to ask this question, then, to see if we can square the circle—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 30 seconds.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

I'll come back in the next round of questions to allow you to answer it. It's simply this: if we used that definition to say that for the purposes of Canadian government action and the Parliament of Canada, that is what Islamophobia will mean, and nothing else, would that resolve the problem of a definition of Islamophobia for you?

[Dr. Sherif Emil]

No, because Islamophobia is a slippery slope. It often starts focused and then has its own life, as has happened in one nation after another where people have been persecuted and imprisoned first under a narrow definition, and then the definition widens. That word should be left out of the vocabulary. It is not used with any other religion, and I don't think it needs to be used with Islam.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Emil. I think your time is up. You may come back to this question, as Mr. Reid said.

Next is Anju Dhillon for the Liberals, for three minutes.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

My questions will be for Mr. Worthen.

How would you describe the situation regarding systemic racism and religious discrimination here in Canada?

[Laurence Worthen]

I come from Nova Scotia, which unfortunately has a very long history of racism. I am disturbed to no end when I see things that have happened on a regular basis. I think it's terrible. I think we still have a problem with racism and I am concerned about any experience of violence against people because of their religious beliefs or discrimination against people because of their religious beliefs.

The purpose of my presentation today was to ask this committee to look at the concerns of health care professionals who are being discriminated against because of their religious beliefs, in that there are certain procedures that they cannot do, yet they are being required by their regulators to do these procedures. I believe it's very serious in that we've had doctors who've had to move from one province to another, doctors who've had to retire. It's a serious problem, and it is because whenever a government or a society decides it is going to impose a secularist mindset, it right away takes away the diversity of a society, and in my view the pluralism and the beauty as well.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

What do you think the federal government should do to combat such racism that is systemic or religious?

[Laurence Worthen]

I believe that there should always be a consideration of people's responsibilities before God, however they see God, and that there should be pan-Canadian legislation that would protect conscience rights so that people could not be forced or coerced to do things against their will.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

What kind of legislation exactly would you want to see?

[Laurence Worthen]

I would want to see legislation that would protect health care workers from being forced to do things against their conscience.