Evidence of meeting #21 for Canadian Heritage in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was broadcasting.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian Scott  Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Scott Hutton  Chief of Consumer, Research and Communications, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Rachelle Frenette  General Counsel and Deputy Executive Director, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Scott Shortliffe  Executive Director, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Catherine Edwards  Executive Director, Canadian Association of Community Television Users and Stations
Alex Freedman  Executive Director, Community Radio Fund of Canada, Canadian Association of Community Television Users and Stations
Jérôme Payette  Executive Director, Professional Music Publishers' Association
Paul Cardegna  Committee Clerk

March 26th, 2021 / 2:40 p.m.

NDP

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank our witnesses today. I had some time to speak with them prior to this meeting, but it's very interesting to hear their perspectives. I'm looking forward to asking some questions.

I'm going to start with the Canadian Association of Community Television Users and Stations. As you know, I am located in Edmonton Strathcona. We are a francophone community. I have a large francophone population here, so of course minority languages and community broadcasting are very important to my constituents and to people in my community.

You talk about recognition within the act and the importance of having that recognition be part of it. Ms. Edwards, you talked a little earlier about how you would like to see community broadcasting be included in other areas of the act, throughout the act.

Can you talk a bit about what those areas are and where you would like to see more inclusion? Could you fill us in a little on that, please?

2:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association of Community Television Users and Stations

Catherine Edwards

Yes, absolutely.

The first recommendation is to have a definition. We assume they're redefining what a BDU is to take in online platforms. We suggest a definition for community broadcasting that defines it as not for profit and includes participation by community members in administration, day-to-day operations and programming. We've provided the wording for that in the brief.

There is a definitions section at the beginning of the act. That's where we'd like that. The words “community elements” and “community programs” are used twice in the act but never defined. In fact, the private and public sectors aren't defined either, but I leave that to them if they want to ask for it. A clearer definition would help.

Secondly, that doesn't tell everybody what community media does. We've had questions here today about what it does. Our suggestion is that there was a paragraph 3(1)(r) that used to refer to alternative programming services. It has been dropped in the current draft, but it almost exactly described what the community sector actually does. As low-hanging fruit, it could be just slightly adapted to do what we need.

For example, if I look at that, it already had four elements that are needed.

One, paragraph 3(1)(r) said such programming should “be innovative and be complementary to the programming provided for mass audiences”. Well, that's what we do. That's what it said before.

Two, the act used to say that alternative programming services should “cater to tastes and interests not adequately provided for by the programming provided for mass audiences, and include programming devoted to culture and the arts”. That's what we do.

Three, they should “reflect Canada’s regions and multicultural nature”. That's what we do.

Four, those services should “be made available throughout Canada” on all platforms. That's what we do.

We suggest adding to these, because “alternative media services” doesn't necessarily embody the idea of community participation. We would add a new subparagraph 3(1)(r)(iv): “be produced by and for local communities through their not-for-profit participative structure”.

As “alternative media services” didn't refer to our training role, we would add a new subparagraph 3(1)(r)(v): “support the development of Canadian creative talent”.

On the last one, somebody asked why it is not okay for for-profit community media to exist, or where the conflict is. Almost all the 30 to 40 years of audiovisual archives of our small communities that cable companies collected over time—to their credit, back in the day they worked—have all been put in dumpsters now. Many communities have no audiovisual record of their council meetings or their festivals. It's all gone. Therefore, we would add a new subparagraph 3(1)(r)(vii) to that, that the programming should “be made available for archival purposes to Library and Archives Canada”.

The loss of cable community TV archives is one of the single biggest cultural losses in Canadian history that nobody is talking about; therefore, there is a slight modification in terms of that.

Lastly, describing a role doesn't always capture what we do, so we've suggested a few other places where existing wording could be clarified so that our role is clearer.

The strongest ones you can see are in paragraphs 3(1)(o) and 3(1)(p). We've beefed up the language to make sure there's programming within the system for indigenous and disabled persons. The realistic way to make that real is to recognize that in smaller communities and for smaller, niche groups, we actually give them the resources and opportunities to develop their own content. They don't have to wait around for someone else to do it for them, and that's how they develop their voices.

We have other examples, but those are some really strong ones, to give you an idea.

2:45 p.m.

NDP

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Ms. Edwards, that's excellent. Thank you so much.

Mr. Freedman, you spoke a little about adequate resources and making sure community broadcasters have those adequate resources they need.

Could you talk a bit about what you see as the future for community broadcasting if those adequate resources are not provided and that is not done properly?

2:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Community Radio Fund of Canada, Canadian Association of Community Television Users and Stations

Alex Freedman

I'll just reference what Commissioner Scott mentioned. The reality is that tangible benefits are going down. Canadian content development dollars are really what fund community radio. As there are fewer transactions, there are fewer dollars.

The reality is that if something isn't done soon, the small amount of funding that comes to us from the commercial radio stations is going to disappear. That means community stations are going to be left even further on their own in terms of trying to make sure they have the funding to do what they need to do.

What we're proposing and what we'd like to see is a fund set up that would supply a number of important things. Number one is stable, long-term, predictable operational funding, very similar to what the CBC gets, in order to ensure that we're able to maintain our position and maintain what we're doing. Number one, we'd like to see that.

We'd also like to see funding for research.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you. We have to move on.

Folks, as we go to the second round, I really need you to help me out here. Given that we have an extra thing to do, you would really help me out if you could make your questions quite pointed.

Mr. Manly, do you have a point of order?

2:45 p.m.

Green

Paul Manly Green Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm hoping somebody can carve off one minute for me so that I can ask a 10-second question and get a 50-second response.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

That is duly noted.

Mr. Aitchison, you have five minutes, please.

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

I will give Mr. Manly his one minute, Mr. Chair, because I don't have a headset.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Okay.

Go ahead, Mr. Manly.

Mr. Aitchison, just wave your hand when you're ready, please.

2:45 p.m.

Green

Paul Manly Green Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Aitchison.

I would like to ask Mr. Freedman and Ms. Edwards about the role community media play in democracy in this country. In small communities, what is the role for candidate profiles and candidate debates so that members of the community can understand who they might be voting for?

2:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Community Radio Fund of Canada, Canadian Association of Community Television Users and Stations

Alex Freedman

It's a critical role. Without the local voice, we've seen the void filled by Facebook and conspiracy theories. Nobody knows where that information is coming from. We provide on-the-ground journalists and hosts and broadcasters who see their constituents and see the people they speak to in the grocery store at the end of their shift. They know what's going on. They're the ones who can provide an opportunity for that.

We've seen an increasing number of municipal councillors using community radio stations to have their council meetings online. Particularly during the pandemic, this gives access to citizens so they are able to have a conversation and hear what's happening in their local areas. The support for town hall meetings is absolutely critical.

I'll let Ms. Edwards continue.

2:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association of Community Television Users and Stations

Catherine Edwards

I was just going to repeat the same things.

There are two other unique things about community media. We don't have the sound-bite limitations on time that commercial and public media have. We feel we can give our MPs unlimited air time. They don't get their messages filtered. Second, part of participating in a democracy is for ordinary people to learn to develop their voices. Just because you stick up a YouTube video doesn't mean you know how to express yourself properly or that you can express a minority point of view and you're not going to be attacked. Having community media centres that help people develop those voices so they can play a role in public discourse is critical, as is providing airtime for online public discourse so the whole community knows that conversations are going on.

If you look at the work we've done under the local journalism initiative at commediaportal.ca, you'll see a lot of those conversations. During the pandemic, we've had a lot of online Zoom conversations, for example, with people asking doctors questions about the vaccines and debating everything else going on in their communities. We can do long-form debate and support public discourse in a way the other sectors can't.

2:50 p.m.

Green

Paul Manly Green Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Thank you.

2:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

I have a few minutes left. I had mistakenly pointed at Mr. Aitchison when I think Mr. Waugh wanted in. You wanted to make a change. Is that correct?

Go ahead, Mr. Waugh. You have two minutes.

2:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

To the Professional Music Publishers' Association, you're right on about YouTube. It is not regulated in Bill C-10, and everybody is using YouTube. We are going to have an issue. As you pointed out, correctly, this should be regulated and it's not.

Is there an amendment or something that you would like to bring forward later? As you know, we all, even as MPs, use YouTube. It not being regulated is an issue with Bill C-10.

2:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Professional Music Publishers' Association

Jérôme Payette

Yes, but our proposal is clear: remove subsection 2(2.1) and section 4.1 of Bill C-10 regarding social media.

We feel that there's a desire to protect social media. We feel that we need to protect our culture and Canadians. Bill C-10 really doesn't focus enough on social media. It focuses on the process of putting content online to make that content stand out. The important thing is the content, not how it's put online. For example, music that ends up on Spotify goes through a distributor. Music that goes on YouTube is put online by a record company, by an artist. Since the content is uploaded directly to the platform, the record company isn't accountable and the content isn't regulated.

Spotify carried out a pilot project, but didn't follow up on it, to allow record companies to upload their music directly to the service. If Bill C-10 were passed, the content put online would no longer be regulated. This leaves a gaping hole in the bill that allows companies to swoop in and avoid the enforcement of the legislation altogether.

Social media is fundamental to the future of our music. YouTube is the most prominent platform right now and it isn't subject to the legislation. TikTok and Triller are great places to discover music. Young people form their musical tastes for decades on these platforms. The comments that I heard in my conversations with officials were really disappointing. The officials made technical arguments, which don't hold water.

2:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you, Mr. Payette.

We'll now go to Ms. Ien for five minutes, please.

2:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marci Ien Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, thank you so much.

Mr. Payette, I just want to follow up a little more on YouTube. I want to know specifically how, when people listen to YouTube and other platforms, it directly impacts your members.

2:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Professional Music Publishers' Association

Jérôme Payette

Our members represent the musical works, meaning the songs that you hear on YouTube. They're directly affected by this. It's a major issue.

We don't understand why the musical works wouldn't be subject to the Broadcasting Act, while Spotify would be, simply because of technological process. In our view, this is completely incomprehensible. That's why subsection 2(2.1) and section 4.1 of Bill C-10 should be removed.

I'd like to address the technical aspect. We were told that it was hard to differentiate between professional and amateur content. This is completely false.

Our industry has been working with metadata, such as the international standard recording code, or ISRC, and international standard musical work code, or ISWC, for decades. YouTube already makes this distinction. It recommends music and makes playlists. This is the most widely used service. For the future of our industry, these works must be subject to the Broadcasting Act, just like other works.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marci Ien Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Thank you so much, Mr. Payette.

I am going back to Ms. Edwards.

Also, feel absolutely free, Mr. Freedman, to answer this as well.

The bottom line here is, if Bill C-10 moves forward with no changes at all, what will this mean for the future of community broadcasting? What will we be missing in the Canadian broadcasting landscape?

2:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association of Community Television Users and Stations

Catherine Edwards

I'll let Alex answer for radio.

For 10 years we've been underscoring to the CRTC and faithfully participating in CRTC hearings about community television, specifically saying that the digital transition has happened; cable companies are consolidated; they're shutting those studios and they're not covering council meetings. All that programming has gone in dumpsters, and we've been getting nowhere.

As Mr. Scott admitted, in 2016 they decided that local news was more important. We can do local news, too, but we can do it in much smaller communities—all the communities where it's not profitable.

We're afraid that there's no specificity about our role. All these reports keep coming out that don't understand our role, but that will continue. These policies will be made that just leave us out, because nobody gets our role. We think that MPs, more than anyone else, get our role, because if you live in a community where there's no public and private broadcaster, you have no way to contact your constituents. Really, we're in your hands.

Other people, frankly, have told us for 10 years that the CRTC is in a situation of regulatory capture. They've said, “The solution to your problem is political. You need to talk to MPs.” We're here begging you, because, as I said, there are 25 struggling little community TV organizations outside Quebec now. Quebec is in a special situation, with 40 in the province, because the province supports them and the CRTC, behind closed doors, has encouraged the Quebec cable companies to support them. There's nothing outside Quebec.

We just think we're going to get more of the same. We've put data that is incontrovertible in front of them, showing that the cable community system does not work.

Also, we're not saying to close the remaining stations. We're just saying recognize that the not-for-profit sector is there. We can go to small communities where cable companies can't and don't want to be anymore.

If we're going to a service contract system with the CRTC anyway, and they want to keep running their stations, recognize them for what they are. They're corporately branded, private, specialty local channels. If they have a value and there's programming, then they'll keep doing them, but we need to have the community empowered to step into the gap in all the places where there isn't cable community TV.

It's over to you, Alex.

2:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Community Radio Fund of Canada, Canadian Association of Community Television Users and Stations

Alex Freedman

The reality is that, if we aren't enshrined in this act, we won't have the protections to keep doing what we're doing. Communities will be deprived of multilingual programming. Immigrant communities will not be able to see themselves reflected in the broadcasts. We're going to have a real lack of community connection, which is critical to our democracy.

Without belabouring the point, the reality is that we play a critical role in the discourse and the promotion of Canadian material in this country: Canadian stories, Canadian music and Canadian information. If we're not protected and we're not enshrined in this, we'll continue to be overlooked as funding is handed out, and Canadians won't get that service.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you, Ms. Ien.

Now we go to Monsieur Champoux.

Mr. Champoux, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

2:55 p.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll turn to you, Mr. Payette. You're very busy today.

I want to address a statement that you repeated earlier and that caught my attention. You said that content, not the way in which it's distributed, should be regulated. I find that intriguing, especially with respect to social media.

You also spoke about TikTok, which is an extremely significant way for today's youth to connect with the world of music and to shape their tastes. This influence will last for years to come.

I want to know how we can ensure discoverability on these platforms, knowing that YouTubers can't really be regulated. You can't tell them what to put on their personal channels, even if they seek to obtain hundreds of thousands of subscribers.

How do you view this situation? Do you know of any ways to regulate this so that everyone is happy?

2:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Professional Music Publishers' Association

Jérôme Payette

YouTube is really the most prominent service to review. It's the most popular service and it obviously features professional content, such as professional music videos, which are promoted on the platform. It also has the most viewers and the most appeal.

In terms of the other services, we're really interested in professional cultural content. We need the CRTC to do its job and obtain figures for the situation. This gives me the chance to reiterate that, if there's no clear authority over social media services, the CRTC will be unable to collect data and we'll be completely in the dark. In contrast, if social media services are clearly subject to the act, the CRTC can collect data. If the services don't need to be regulated, it has the power to exempt them. We aren't saying that everything must always be regulated. However, we must at least be able to obtain the figures in order to understand and study the situation.

This is how I would answer your question about TikTok. If TikTok obtains 50% of its revenue from music, we could have it contribute to FACTOR or Musicaction. This type of contribution to the development of Canadian music would be based on the 50% of revenue from music. We need a similar measure. A number of things must be considered. The CRTC is an important step in the process.